Please don't shoot the messenger, guys (not that the PPOT brain trust would ever do that:rolleyes:).

Dems da rules that virtually every club here in Washington enforces. Take it or leave it. I didn't make them, I don't enforce them, and I'm pretty damn ambivalent about them. All I did was communicate them.

The way I see it, just like if you crash on the highway... it happened in public, it will probably make the net... Big frigging whoop.... As Todd said, just some bent sheet metal....

Many DE groups ask these types of pix not to be posted, but not for the reasons posted, but because they don't want to scare any new drivers off.. And yes, I have been asked not to post crash pix from more than one group (but then again, I have been doing em a long time. No group wants to get a reputation of having unsafe events, and yes, these track crashes do affect all of the track guys..

Yea, I dont get it. If no one is planning on a bogus insurance claim and no one got hurt, whats the big deal. I took pics of the side of a car at the last DE that had some damage. And I did it in full daylight, without camo or telephoto lens. I guess I should have been more careful. I havnt posted them, but if I did- banned?? WTF. If that is true in whatever region, it better be posted everywhere and announced at every driver meeting.

Im open to any real reasons why that is a valid "punishment".

First rule of "fight club"..............

So you're saying that getting new drivers (ie more $$$) is so important that they censor the members? Or they want to under-represent the inherent risks in DEs?

Sorry, I don't get it. None of these reasons seem particularly compelling or honest.

I don't organize or help run DE's at any level, for most of the same reasons I would never run or moderate a forum like this one. It seems many of those who participate are just too smart, just too good looking, just too special, for any of the common rules of decency to apply to them. They are all special cases who get special exceptions, who must have the finer points of propriety, restraint, and good manners continually explained to them. They neither "get it" nor see how any of that applies to them. They feel they are above all of that.

It is for such people that gentlemen - normally decent, understanding, moderate, quiet types need to come out with such absolutes. Gentlemen, not quite so full of themselves, don't need to hear these things. It remains axiomatic in most endeavors that many of "the rules" are made for those who don't "get it", who will never understand. Their egos preclude that. They inhabit forums like this and, unfortunately, they attend DE's. It's very clearly a case where the "gentleman's rules" that used to be implicit in such endeavors no longer are, so they must be spelled out - with attendant penalties - for those participants who neither "get it", nor are "gentlemen" about it. They cannot understand the "why" (and think it shouldn't apply to them, since they are so special), so those that do understand are forced into the rather un-gentlemanly position of having to make and enforce "official" rules that were once implicitly understood by one and all. Such is the price in a society where everyone is "special"...

Pretty much..

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Banned for pictures? thats ridiculous. I assure you Peachstate PCA does not have that rule..

um, ok.

Evidently you're not as ambivalent as you thought :D

all this crap about not showing pics and video makes no sense to me. If you can't afford a shunt or don't want to see pics of your car if you FU, stay the **** at home, leave the car in the garage or better still sell it to someone else.

It's amusing to watch people get so bent out of shape by something that is none of their business in any conceivable way. Spitting expletives at their keyboards, what fun! And people wonder why there aren't more members of Pelican.

In my interactions with other Porsche owners in the Pacific NW, there is one theme that stands out more than any other.... very few will acknowledge that they've ever heard of Pelican, even though this is one of the biggest Porsche websites on the planet. Their silence speaks volumes. They prefer real life with real friends who have real codes of honor and community standards of behavior.

People vote with their wallets...

_

Aww dang. This is the part of every thread debate where it gets all quotation-and-retort, feelings get hurt and egos crushed. The only thing missing now is the final blow to a thread, which is putting someone down because they spell a word wrong.

Anyway, all this talk of honor and getting it- we are not talking about photographing dead bodies are we? I guess Im dishonorable and dont get it.

Genrex,
What were you doing up at 0442? Or are you not at home?

Imo......if you can't accept the risk of writing off your car at the track be it a de or any type of event on track then it shouldn't be on the track...
If it is a concern you can get track insurance as started previously.......
It's again about personal liability, and covering your own ass in the event of something like this.....
Wo is me If I crash my car on track and someone posts pictures.....that's life....plan ahead......

Since I was the one that indicated that IMHO it is not cool to post pics of banged cars, I’ll add a couple of notes of why personally think it’s not cool.

The owner already had the incident of which he probably beating himself up for what happened, for risking his car, for getting in deep doo-doo with the marital unit, for showing that he is not the big shot he thinks he was, could be anything. I was not thinking nor suggesting committing insurance fraud (especially since my practice has a lot to do with fighting insurance crime) even though that might be an issue to some. To each his own when it comes to personal ethics just don't try to get it past my team.

I would imagine that some DE organizations don’t want them out there either as it could affect their standing (with drivers, clubs, their insurers, track owners, etc).

There are also issues of responsibility that are not often talked about on DE venues. What happens if an incident happens when the instructor is driving? What happens when an instructor gets hurt whilst on the passenger seat….?
Many things to consider and one of the reasons I don’t instruct anymore ( a friend got badly hurt whilst on the passenger seat).

It is a fact that, when you play with fire you stand to get burned but I’m for letting the victim deal with his wounds. And paraphrasing what was mentioned before, if you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime.

One of the things I like the least about racing spectators in general is that a lot of them do not care about the racing as much as they look for spectacular accidents. IMHO, that is what demolition derbies (and programs like the Kardashians ;) ), are for not Grand Am, ALMS, F1, NASCAR, …..

I for one don’t come to Pelican to see pics of banged up cars except if they are shown as an inspiration of a great project and related resurrection of a car. And we have seen plenty of them. I remember when Jack busted up his original black car only to come back with a vengeance which has inspired many to improve their toys.

There is at least one website to look at trashed cars out there (crashed exotics or something similar to that).

Personally, I have had incidents racing and pics have been posted some by me (edit: so far, none my fault!). It’s a part of my game but in the end, it is my choice.

Mossguy -- yeah, my girlfriend hates it when I wake up in the middle of the night and get on the computer "for a minute" and then go back to bed. I figure she's sleeping through it, but somehow she always knows, and she always gives me an earful about it. Anyway, why were you *not* on Pelican at 0442 in the morning? Are you not home? :)

_

Heh, he, you did. "Im" and "dont."

Or maybe that key dont work. ;)

As far as I can tell, accidents happen at DEs due to 3 main reasons:

1. ego
2. mechanicals
3. ego

And sometimes ego is involved. So basically you're saying that posting pics of a car that stuffed hurts the ego of the guy who did it? He should be beating himself up and maybe some publicity might make him think twice before he gets in over his head the next time


All the more reason to be up front about these issues and talk about them. Frankly some of the people at DEs shouldn't be there, and people should be reminded about the possible consequences. Some organizations are really good at dealing with this, others not so much.

For the most part I had good experiences instructing but there were the occasional students that gave me pause. Mostly because they flat out didn't listen. They were either stupid or had ego issues. Or both :D

Actually, I was at home, but it was not one of my 3 nights/week insomnia nights. I usually wake up sometime between 0100 and 0300 and "work" at the computer until I get sleepy enough to go back to bed, usually 1 - 1 1/2 hours.

Very well put. And you can see their behavior in parking lots (where they think they can park in the fire lane and run in for a minute) on the sidelines at kid's ball games, or allowing their child's outrageous behavior in public to go without correction.
Back to the thread, I wouldn't post pics of a DE mishap... But I would expect and could care less that someone would of mine.

The only thing I'm more ambivalent about is my utter ambivalence.:p

They were described to me as blue shrubs :).

Really? I have yet to see a crash at a DE due to mechanical failure. That's not to say I haven't seen mechanical failure, but it hasn't caused a crash. Every single crash I've seen has involved driver error. And I'll bet my car that the vast majority of those errors involves ego.

I have worked the grid/steward position at our events on the east coast. People have gotten a little snotty with the lookover we do on the cars before they head out on the track. We have found many a helmet, hood or HANS unlatched. Our region (due to some arrangement with the flaggers) doesn't allow Go Pros or anything else suctioned to the glass. (Glued is OK). People get really pissy when you have them take it down. One guy had a giant GPS data logger. It was like a mini laptop almost. Anyway, last event, a guy broke a splitter off a GT3 and ran it over. It kicked up and smashed the glass of the car behind. If there was a suctioned cupped device, it would have been a projectile at 100+. Yow.

Common decency comes with not posting these photos. Do many folks take photos? Of course. Banged up cars on the internet let people gloat about rich guys with egos breaking their toys. I have seen many ego driven crashes, I have also seen people just in over their head and not have the capacity/seat time to deal with situations just yet.

You car DE peeps are uptight. Bikes come back in several pieces on the crash truck and lowball bids for it are part of the fun. ( after learning that the rider is okay or not too bad off )
A friend in florida had his come back in the bucket of a backhoe, and that made for a great photo op.

As the saying goes " no matter how you crash, you always land on your wallet"

Go Pros and such . Many groups are now requiring that they be safety wired or otherwise teathered to the bike.

Of course, there is a lot less money involved with the bikes. I've seen bumper damage on cars cost enough to buy a six pack of R6's.

I know, I know - "don't bring anything to the track that you can't afford to throw off a cliff". I'm admittedly pretty close to that, with my old '72 track rat, but most certainly are not.

I love it - I've actually not heard that one before.

My wife tells me motorcycle track days are "out"; reasoning that I'm at an age now where my wallet heals faster than my body, where in the early days of our marriage, it was the other way around.

Incredibly, I still see these suction-cupped onto windshields, bumpers, fenders, doors - you name it. The day one comes off in front of me is the day I violate the rules and publish "crash" video to YouTube - a colonoscopy filmed with the guy's very own camera.

Better attached things fly out of cars. Case in point the tip of my very expensive B&B exhaust when it detached at Sebring during a DE back in 1996 and bounced off the hood of an M3 only to destroy his windshield and by "ricochet" almost affecting the structural integrity of my face.

In one of the vintage racing organizations i participate with, they invite a group of racers from the old world and man, their cars litter the track with spings, lids, etc. I had an ugly close call when I broke a cv at very high speed after hitting a chunk that came out of one of their cars.

(sidebar: not fun to break a CV at 140MPH barreling down the tri-oval at Daytona :O )

Get out there and ride a track.
I know of a a bunch who started in their fifties and of a couple who are still grinding pucks into their seventies.

It is a heck of alot safer than the street.
Cars and carts are just not the same as reaching out and touching the track as you glide along through a corner.

I have, but you are correct, most of the time it is EGO, generally in the Instructors group of someone with a new Turbo. I was at one event where an instructor, hit a wall, in a 911, but had a case of MOTOR OIL in the truck, needless to say, he wasn't the only one to get any damage in that incident.

Which is why I have a dedicated Track car and we have Rental Track cars
The big problem can be getting EVENT insurance, our Dark Side DEs are very clear that it is DRIVERS EDUCATION, not a Racing event, this is what keeps the insurance rates down, as competitive events are more expensive to insure, which means the cost more. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1346192544.jpg

Oh, you have no idea how dearly I would love to take the old 900 SS out for a track day. Or, better yet, a dedicated track bike, so I wouldn't feel bad about tearing up all the nice carbon fiber bits on the Duc.

Alas, such is not to be. My wife is a wonderful person, who has been putting up with me and my shenanigans for almost 30 years now. Many, many of my adventures are what one would consider "risky" (climbing Mt. Rainier, being dropped off by bush plane in the wilderness to hunt for weeks at a time, untold solo back packing trips through the Cascades, Olympics, and other ranges, hunting "dangerous" big game, and on and on). She is the poster child for the "long suffering" wife, sitting quietly at home, wondering...

She has never said "no". Never put her foot down. She still hasn't, but she has asked "please don't". She would never stop me or get in my way in any way - "please don't" is as far as it will ever get. I respect her and love her with all of my heart. Her "please don't" - just once in oh so many years - resonates with me in a way that I suppose guys who suffer endless "I won't let you's" and "you can't's" might not understand. It terrifies her in a way nothing she has ever seen me do ever has, and that means something to me. I can have one unchecked item on my bucket list, I guess. She's checked so many others...

I saw a car totaled at the Glen when the aftermarket rim comletely sheared in a high speed corner so it does happen. What got me out of doing these was always worring about getting hit by another driver, not wrecking. There is no protection against that.

That makes perfect sense. It may not be rational but matters of the heart do not need to be.

Your solo back country hikes would really scare me. Several years ago I went for a day trip in Nevada. Up the Alien hwy and over Ely, then back home to Vegas. I saw a "park" called lunar crater ( volcanic crater) and thought it may be interesting. I drive what seems like several miles off the hwy and get to the crater. It did look pretty neat and there were some paths down into it. I started to make my way down whem I stopped and listened to the quiet. It dawned on me that no one would would hear or see me if something went wrong. A turned ankle would be bad, a broken leg could be fatal. I turned around and headed back to my truck.


I like waving to the corner workers at the track, knowing they are the ones coming to get me. After my first big crash a few years back, I always thumbs up the track marshal at pit out. I figure he/she may be the last person I communicate with, ever.

You haven't been to many DEs then. I've seen countless oil lines burst and the next 10 cars all go off or crash because of it, but yes the majority are driver induced.

Blown radiator hoses and coolant puked out of an overheating car driven by an inattentive pilot have caused more than their share of crash damage to the next car to arrive at the slick. I classify that as a mechanical failure accident.

Yeah, and like I said, for all she has put up with from me, I can certainly concede this one.

I know it's weird, but I find a lot of peace and solace in the fact that I'm completely on my own. That, and a certain clarity of thought, and deliberateness of action. Much like a DE, but in extremely slow motion. :D


Yup. It's always good kharma to be good to those who are helping us have our fun, and who may very well be the ones saving our unlucky asses, or the last ones we ever got to wave at.

Speaking of crashes and their causes, I've seen a mix of both mechanicals and cranials. I had an old Alfa coup blow a head gasket in front of me going around turn two at Pacific Raceways one day, spewing anti-freeze all over the track in front of me. That was a pretty wild ride for me; as close as I've come to completely tossing it. Had a brand new Focus SVT (or whatever) explode the right front hub (again, right in front of me) going up the hill around turn six, also at Pacific. Totaled that little Focus, and its driver was darn lucky to escape unscathed. I was about half a lap behind (or in front of) and old TR6 that disembowled itself going through 5A/5B at Pacific, leaving recognizable pieces of connecting rod, bearing caps, and about eight quarts of oil all over the track. The next several cars through there were toast. Then there was the Formula Vee that split its tranny in half, leaving blue Swepco just out of sight over the hill in turn seven. A first day out, just completed M3/LS6 car spun on it, caught a berm, and rolled several times. And on and on... Plenty of mechanicals.

Granted, I've seen lots of brain farts as well. Probably an even split between the two, actually. Or, no - if we count all of the spins and harmless "offs", the brain farts win the day. I haven't seen many "harmless" (beyond the initial failure) mechanicals, though. There is usually a lot more damage about to happen to the car that just had something fail and, unfortunately, those behind it.

I've probably done 50 or 60 track days, so maybe no veteran, but hardly a rookie either. I've only ever seen a big fluid spill once, and in fact was involved in it. 4 or 5 of us in a train and the lead guy sheared a coolant line, IIRC. If you know Mosport, by any chance, this was at the bottom of 4, preparing for 5, which is the hairpin. We all got nice and squiggly, but because everyone was driving sanely nobody crashed. We all pitted in for a debrief and cleanup, but no carnage.

I do the steward job just before you get out to the pit out guy. I get a lot of thumbs up and give it to my peers. I never thought that was the reason. That's heavy.

We all like happy endings.

My "home" track, Pacific Raceways, is notoriously unforgiving. Very little to no runoff in any of the corners, to where it has not kept up with certification to host any event for the big kids. I've seen too many damaged cars towed out of there that would have only required a change of shorts at other venues.

Fortunately, we now have a new track in the town of Shelton, WA, known as Ridge Motorsports Park. The place is freakin' awesome. I've only been there twice, but the sheer magnitude of the "nothing to hit" is very confidence inspiring. Hopefully it makes Pacific step up their game a bit...