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Quote:

Originally Posted by kaisen (Post 6945416)

To Speeder's point: You should know better too. People who buy late model (new) Porsches don't give a rat's azz about them. They are just cars.

You know from your 'hood that they drive them through Starbucks drive-thru, park them on the street overnight, let their little dogs hang out in the back seat, etc. They are just cars. Any given hour in the Beverly Hills area you will see a "new" Porsche parked off Rodeo with wheels black from brake dust, scraped front bumper from riding up on curb stops, deep door dings from the gym or nightclub, bird doo on the paint, and receipts and sunglasses strewn on the dash. These same cars will be sold two years old with 30K miles, the Porsche dealer will refinish the curb scuffed wheels, replace the worn tires, paint the front bumper, have the paintless dent removal guy straighten the panels, the leather guy patch and re-dye the back seat where Fifi dug in her claws when the owner took it too fast down Laurel, replace the broken knobs, refinish the peeling soft-touch switch surrounds, and detail the paint to a mirror. Then it's sold as "Certified Pre-Owned" and commands a premium.

Eventually, maybe an owner or two later, some "enthusiast" will buy it and wax on about how perfect and "original" the car is, rub it with egyptian cloth diapers before they go to bed each night, and not drive it more than a few miles each month to preserve its value.

That's quite a generalization. I, for one, don't fit and have a later model water pumper. It may have fit in with the description for its first 2 years of life, though. But in 10 years of ownership I have failed to find the signs.

It has never suffered the abuses you describe while in our possession.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeke (Post 6945501)

Your car is thirteen years old, not late model

And you're not the typical SoCal Porsche owner. Far from it.

And I'd bet in the first two years of life it saw more abuse than it has seen in your care

Eric,

You're missing the point. All other things being equal, I'd pay a premium for a car with low mileage. A low mileage car doesn't have to have any deferred maintenance. It can be just as current as a daily driver. Mine were. Just because a prospective car has low miles doesn't mean it shouldn't be checked out in exactly the same way as any other car.

None of my low mileage cars had any expenses associated with sitting. They were maintained in the same manner as the cars with higher mileage. None of them had any unusual failures.

I've owned several cars where I had more than one of a particular model, at the same time. I'll give you an example of a pair of mine. Car A was a two owner car with 70k miles, bought for $12k. Car B was identical, other than it was 3 model years older and had 143k miles. I paid $4300 for it. It was also a two-owner car, both of whom were club members; it had original paint and all service records from new (a file about an inch thick). The services were largely performed by a dealer. I spent $30K on car B, to bring it up to the same standard as car A. No major motor work, just refreshing all the little things than go bad with age, plus a little work on the paint. In the end, both looked great and were 100% up-to-date mechanically. When I sold them 6 or 7 years later, car A sold for $24k and car B sold for $21k. Car B never drove as nicely as car A. I could tell them apart blindfolded, before I got out of first gear. To me, it was a night and day difference.

JR

Quote:

<div class="pre-quote">
Quote de <strong>kaisen</strong>
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<div class="post-quote">
<div style="font-style:italic">Eventually, maybe an owner or two later, some "enthusiast" will buy it and wax on about how perfect and "original" the car is, rub it with egyptian cloth diapers before they go to bed each night, and not drive it more than a few miles each month to preserve its value.</div>
</div>LOL. I'm still trying to figure out why driving your car in the rain is a bad thing.

Unless it's acid rain, I don't see the big deal. Maybe it gets a lot dirtier? Driving a vehicle on salted roads for any period of time causes irreversible damage. It may be minor if it's a newer car, but it's damage. Same with parking it near the ocean for any period if there is ocean spray in the air.

Quote:

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy (Post 6945434)

LOL. I'm still trying to figure out why driving your car in the rain is a bad thing.

Every time your car gets wet, water gets into places that take days to dry out again. Over time, these areas can rust, Porsche's galvanizing notwithstanding. A good example of this is the joint between the tub of a 911 and it's front fenders. Or, have a look under the weatherstripping in the front trunk of any 914. I could list dozens of examples.

Plated finishes don't last forever. Have a look at the fasteners on a car that's seen a lot of rain, then go look at one that has been kept dry.

Pull a tailight out of a 911 that's seen a lot of rain and take it apart. Take note of the corrosion inside.

Disassemble a 911 for a restoration and take note of how much time you spend cleaning an 1/8th of an inch of crud off of every part underneath it, before you get to the real work of refurbishing the parts.

Etc., etc.

JR

I currently have, and have owned for years, an 80s car that has well under 10K miles on it.

Obviously, it sits, a lot, often for 6-8 weeks at a time.

It is, however, fully roadworthy and does get fully warmed up, taken out, driven up to redline, braked hard, etc. from time to time. It is also fully maintained.

I've never had any real problem with "seals," etc. Yes, over the years I've had a gasket or 2 start leaking, but those things happen when you drive a car, too. All the body seals, rubber, etc. are all original and are all like new.

I agree, the supposed "problems" with low mile cars is generally overstated on internet forums.

Since everyone gets major wood from a nice 993, here's a Turkish Green '96 with 3,700 miles.

Porsche : 911 Carrera Coupe 2-Door | eBay

What do you think it will fetch? $45,100 right now and it hasn't met reserve...

$50,000?

$55,000?

$59,000?

Quote:

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Quote de <strong>javadog</strong>
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<div class="post-quote">
<div style="font-style:italic">I gotta agree with Speeder on the low miles issue. I've owned a bunch of low mileage cars and the issue of them automatically having more problems just isn't true. Think about it this way... all cars spend the vast majority of their life sitting still. If you look at a 25 year old car with 100,000 miles, it will have spent 98% of it's life sitting still. Not a big difference to the low mileage car that spent 99%...</div>
</div>Totally agree that low miles doesn't automatically mean more problems than high miles. But the opposite, that low miles automatically means less problems than high miles, likely isn't true either. It's all about condition.<br>
<br>
We all freak out when a three year old car has 60K miles, that you should never buy a "high mile" car. But we'd love to pay a premium to find a eight year old car with "only" 60K miles!! Oh boy!!<br>
<br>
In reality BOTH cars have 60K miles, and it's more likely that the eight year old 60K mile car isn't as nice as the three year old 60K mile car. But which one commands a huge premium? Why? Think about it.<br>
<br>
So looking at this 28 year old Porsche with 52K miles on the clock is no idicator that it hasn't had paintwork, that it doesn't need tires, brakes, battery, belts, hoses, electrical components, filters, plug wires, etc, etc, etc. It certainly may, just due to age. So it depends on when those were done last, right?<br>
<br>
If it were a 28 year old Porsche with 104K miles, I hate to say it.... that's still low miles. Only 3800 miles per year. So it has sat, and sat, and sat. It's sat for long periods of time without being started or run. So it may have exactly the same issues as that 52K mile car. And the 52K mile car may have the exact same issues as the 104K mile car. But yet the 104K mile car will sell for THOUSANDS less than the 52K mile car, simply because of the odometer. Even if it has spent its life in the garage. Even if it just had new Michelins, pads, battery, tune up, valve cover re-seal, etc. It could be very, very nice--- and still fetch much less.<br>
<br>
The "marketplace" respods to miles because the average buyer (think about average...McDonald's) has to rely on an objective measurement of value -- the miles showing on the odometer. The rest is subjective (paint condition, interior condition, etc). We need something to hang our hat on.<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="pre-quote">
Quote
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<div class="post-quote">
<div style="font-style:italic">A low mileage car is usually garaged, not left out in the weather. A normal mileage car is more likely to be used as a daily driver, which also means it sees more rain. Those cars are easy to spot.</div>
</div>You're making my point. You're saying that miles are a common indicator for a garaged car, because garaged cars are nicer. Why not just look for garaged cars, regardless of odometer?<br>
<br>
<div class="pre-quote">
Quote
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<div class="post-quote">
<div style="font-style:italic">The other thing is that the market usually doesn't allow as much of a premium for low mileage as you'd think. Getting a high mileage car back into the same shape as a low mileage one is usually more expensive than the premium you'd pay. Been there, done that.<br>
<br>
JR</div>
</div>As a previous Ferrari owner, you should know better. Even 10K mile cars can need $30,000 in deferred maintenance and cosmetics. So would the exact same car with 5K miles. Or 50K miles. It's all about condition and value. If the 5K mile car were "worth" $150K but needed $30K in work, you'd pay $120K. If the 10K mile car were "worth" #130K, you'd better pay $100K. And that 50K mile car might only be worth $80K, and you might not be able to buy it for $50K. But all three cars, when "corrected" and up-to-date are likely as nice as one another, and mechanically equal. Yet one car you had $150K tied up and the other, maybe $90K. Over the next five years, which will have been the better value?<br>
<br>
To Speeder's point: You should know better too. People who buy late model (new) Porsches don't give a rat's azz about them. They are just cars. <br>
<br>
You know from your 'hood that they drive them through Starbucks drive-thru, park them on the street overnight, let their little dogs hang out in the back seat, etc. They are just cars. Any given hour in the Beverly Hills area you will see a "new" Porsche parked off Rodeo with wheels black from brake dust, scraped front bumper from riding up on curb stops, deep door dings from the gym or nightclub, bird doo on the paint, and receipts and sunglasses strewn on the dash. These same cars will be sold two years old with 30K miles, the Porsche dealer will refinish the curb scuffed wheels, replace the worn tires, paint the front bumper, have the paintless dent removal guy straighten the panels, the leather guy patch and re-dye the back seat where Fifi dug in her claws when the owner took it too fast down Laurel, replace the broken knobs, refinish the peeling soft-touch switch surrounds, and detail the paint to a mirror. Then it's sold as "Certified Pre-Owned" and commands a premium.<br>
<br>
Eventually, maybe an owner or two later, some "enthusiast" will buy it and wax on about how perfect and "original" the car is, rub it with egyptian cloth diapers before they go to bed each night, and not drive it more than a few miles each month to preserve its value.

This post makes the bizarre assumption that a car could be drive on public roads for 52k miles, (from 52 to 104k miles), with absolutely no wear at all. (??).

I don't care how careful you are, if you drive a car it gets more used. I've been driving a 2011 car for the last 1k miles and I've put wear on it. It would be a nicer car if it had sat in a garage for the last month. I don't notice the wear on my older, high-mileage cars but boy do I notice it on a newer car. Didn't you ever have demos in the car biz? They age in the first 2k miles.

"Quote de javadog"

Actually, I think you're responding to Eric's comments about my posts. You're makin' me look bad, man...

JR

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaisen (Post 6945547)

Since everyone gets major wood from a nice 993, here's a Turkish Green '96 with 3,700 miles.

What do you think it will fetch?

Don't know. Don't care. I don't like the 993's, at all. And I really can't stand a car with a gray interior...

JR

Eric - how easy is it to spin a VDO mechanical odometer and what is the best way to do it?

I have a spare one for my '86 Vanagon and want to spin it UP in miles to make it match the busted original one...

can I just move the number wheels with a pick? or do I need to use a square drive bit in a drill for hour after hour??

To me, personally, for an 80s 911 I prefer a "low/mid" mile car.

I bought one with 30K miles on it, which was a great car, but it was too perfect and the miles were too low for me to feel comfortable driving it, putting it in parking lots, etc. I bought it with the intention of driving it, but I just didn't have the heart to do it.

My current is an 88 that I bought with 72K miles on it. Perfect. I paid what others seem to have been paying for 130K mile cars.

To me, that's the current sweet spot for Carreras. You can still find them in well maintained, original condition with 70-85K miles on them. If you look hard enough, and are able to move quick enough, you can get one for a good price still, and will have a lot of the car's best years/miles to enjoy.

Then how about this..... it sold recently:

2007 911 Carrera S Coupe 6 spd

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1346364542.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1346364555.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1346364569.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1346364583.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1346364598.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1346364609.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1346364623.jpg

I realize it's apples to a different kind of apple, but it sold for about the same as that 52K mile 1985 Carrera on eBay.

All because it had 99K miles. Condition was exceptional. New Pirellis. New windshield. Stacks of receipts, dealer maintained. No paintwork. One owner.

Three weeks ago the same car (but without NAV) did $58,200 with fees. Because it had 13K miles.

A $30,000 premium for fewer miles.

Quote:

Originally Posted by javadog (Post 6945540)

Yep, I'm not afraid of getting mine wet at all, but it's pretty rare. She was a garage queen (46K mi) at the time, and when I tore into her, I found what JR speaks of. Another place is in the rear wheel wells way back adjacent to the rockers...I couldn't believe the packed in dirt/crud/tar etc. that was on both sides...not an issue now, but left alone it would have been.

Quote:

Originally Posted by McLovin (Post 6945580)

I bought one with 30K miles on it, which was a great car, but it was too perfect and the miles were too low for me to feel comfortable driving it, putting it in parking lots, etc. I bought it with the intention of driving it, but I just didn't have the heart to do it....
.

Sounds a bit like my CE and the exact reason the PO sold it after 6 months. He was a true "car guy" but didn't have the heart to expose it to "the city", so he passed it on. If I may ask, was your CE one you've been talking about in these posts, if so, which one?

Quote:

Originally Posted by javadog (Post 6945559)

"Quote de javadog"

Actually, I think you're responding to Eric's comments about my posts. You're makin' me look bad, man...

JR

Yeah, I was. Damn iPhone won't do the *quote function* right. :cool:

Quote:

Originally Posted by speeder (Post 6945619)

Yeah, I was. Damn iPhone won't do the *quote function* right. :cool:

If that's not an APPL killer I don't know what is :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by RWebb (Post 6945570)

It's very easy to get a certificate of existing miles before changing out a speedo. Why put the wear on the replacement?

Quote:

Originally Posted by javadog (Post 6945562)

Don't know. Don't care. I don't like the 993's, at all. And I really can't stand a car with a gray interior...

JR

Ditto. This going to turn into the movie, "Stepbrothers" between us. :)

That's not the best looking car. It probably sat on the showroom floor for 3 years before they had to give it away for less than it's going to fetch now. :D

The truth of the matter is that 993s have a following, even if it's not my favorite model, and they will pull strong prices in good color/condition/miles with records, etc. The turbos and wide-body "S" models bring exceptionally strong money, I would not even consider one for my used 911 $$. That high-mileage 997S would definitely get a look for the right price. Mileage is just one parameter of a car's value used but it's an important one. :cool:

Quote:

Originally Posted by RWebb (Post 6945570)

Just send it down to North Hollywood speedometer and have them go through it and then set the miles where you want them. If it's a typical VDO gauge that breaks anyways, why not have it rebuilt and updated for $150 and not have to R&R it again? :cool: