Boolit casting
 

I recently bought an original 1861 Springfield rifle from the Civil War era...58 cal muzzle loader but is a rifled bbl. I used to shoot these originals back in High School and I want to shoot this one. Now I have loaded and cast bullets for BPCR shooting (BP cartridge) out of 20:1 Lead:tin but something tells me that pure lead would be required for shooting this old lady.

I have pure lead but would have to drain my lead pot to start over with pure stuff so let me know what you experienced guys think.... Pure lead or 20:1

Pure lead is the only way to go for these. There are a couple of problems if you try to use anything harder. One is that harder alloys will not bump upon firing to properly to fill the rifling, despite the huge hollow base on the Minie ball. This will make the ball skip and skid down the bore, leading it pretty bad in the process. That, and pure lead shrinks the most coming out of the mold; Minie molds are sized to allow for easy loading in a fouled bore with pure lead. Anything harder that shrinks less will kind of giving you a "double whammy" as far as loading ease - the bullet will be bigger and harder, both of which will make it harder to load.

The standard load for these is 60 grains of FFg. Make sure you fill the hollow base with lube in addition to filling the "lube grooves", such as they are. They are really more "scrapers", meant to help keep the bore cleaner for easier loading. Lot of guys don't put any lube in them, since it mostly comes off in handling anyway - they rely on the big blob in the hollow base.

I never have liked casting Minie balls. Monkeying with the base plug is an added step that just slows me down. Fortunately, being a muzzle loader, it's hard to go through too many of them, so that helps a bit.

Thanks Jeff... I was hoping you would reply. I guess I knew I should use pure lead but my pot is full of 20:1 so I'll have to use another. I have plenty of pure lead... Yeah, the base plug is a PIA but this mould only throws 320gr Minnies for plinking. Did not know about filling the hollow base...thanks for that. This is a very nice original 61 Springfield and should shoot well. I won't shoot it much at all but would be fun to play with for a bit. it's mostly just a treasure to have around.

I'm envious, Mark. Those are an awful lot of fun to shoot, and it can be surprising just how well they do shoot.

I keep three of the big 20 pound Lee dipping pots around, all with a different mix. 20:1 for the black powder cartridge rifles, wheel weights for the handguns and modern rifles, and pure lead for the front stuffers. Those pots are so darn cheap I figured I could spring for three and still not have into them what a single Lyman, RCBS, or SAECO would set me back. They are great pots, too - I've never had a lick of trouble with any of them.

Jeff,
One of my good friends is an antique gun dealer. I have visited his man cave many times as well as his sales room...all very well hidden and locked in his home. On my most recent trip to see him I mentioned my past life ;) experience with re-enactments when we used to shoot these original rifles with blank charges, of course, but we also shot matches with them. He said he had several and I bought one right on the spot. Gorgeous piece for not much more than an Italian copy.

I was casting some 38-55 yesterday but had my new Mini ball mould so tried a few just to see. I do need another pot with pure lead for sure.

Hey, it can't hurt to try. One thing I've learned in the black powder game - "never say 'never'..." Who knows, your rifle may do just fine with 20:1, or at least well enough to entertain yourself. That's really all we are after anyways, playing with these old guns. Let us know how the old soldier likes 'em.

OK then....I'll give it a go. Film at 11. ;)

I use 20:1 for everything except for round balls and it seems to work. The .451 bullets for both the Gibbs and the Tryon rifles use a lubed fiber wad over the powder which serves the same purpose as the milk carton wad in my .459 sized 45-70 BPCRs (Sharps and Rolling Blocks). I did make some round balls from 20:1 and they were a tad lighter and did shoot a couple inches higher at 50 yds but at 100 yds had dropped right back to where the pure lead balls hit.

I use 70 grains of Goex FFG in the muzzle loader Gibbs and Tryon out to 300 yards and if over that I use 90 grains. I use 68 in all the BPCRs out to 800 yards.

John...

Cool..thanks for that. I shoot round balls in my Ruger Old Army pistols..pure lead. I'll try the 20:1 in this '61 Springfield. I like the idea of an greasy over powder wad too. Guess I should have cast more yesterday.. Used to shoot BPCR Silhouette and Çreedmoor all the time until my left shoulder went south. We were casting 38/70 groove-less bullets and winning at 1000 yards.

1000 yards with black powder?! hats off, sir.

The first of the "real" guns I bought was a home gunsmithed original Rolling Block with a 32 inch heavy Badger Barrel built about 15 years ago and sat for probably 10 or so. The builder had bad joints and had installed a recoil pad on a beartiful piece of American Walnut. The builder was about 6'8" and unfortunately for me when I finally got the loads worked out using a LeadSled and started to shoot off hand I found I could not reach the trigger! So I took the pad and about another inch off the stock and cast in nearly a pound of lead to balance the gun. My mentor also told me to use a straight cut butt on the 45-70 guns as it would affect me less and it seems to be true. I have a Sharps that is curved quite a lot (like a Winchester 74) and it does make my shoulder sore after 50 rounds or so.

Before anyone chimes in on to never use a LeadSled, I use high density foam behind the stock to absorb the shock and it takes ME out any load development equation.

Well, thanks for that but it's not really as hard as you might think. It does take discipline to be sure and knowledge of wind deflection but you can hit a target that far away..BTW, we were using ladder style peep sights...no scopes and always had a spotter watching wind and calling changes in sight settings. Team effort...

Neat story John. I know what you went thru and even though crescent butt plates look cool they are not good for this game. I used a strap on shoulder pad when I shot 45/90 but I changed to 38-70 and never used a pad again. Big difference. I just don't shoot prone anymore because of left shoulder problems... I miss the game a lot... I won one Ca State BP Creedmore match before I had to quit...great memory..

i know how hard it is with my .308 and i have a .50 black powder rifle. with peep sights, again, hats fricken off!

Well thank you again... I'd love to show you how it's done and let you try it. It does take some dedication though. You must cast your own bullets because you cannot buy bullets good enough to be accurate at that distance. Loading the case is precise as well...all very complex and time consuming, but that's what you gotta do to be that accurate. Even after I had cast 100 bullets....which may take most of a day...you need to let them 'cure' for a few weeks. Then loading 100 cartridges would take most of another day just to measure powder, compress just so, and so forth. It's a very precise sport...but fun.

hell, i'd like some instruction at 1000 yards with .308 . :) cheers!

d.

You guys are not helping at all. I sure miss shooting the .45-70!

what is the weight of the bullet with the 38/70?

the .45-70 is a really cool firearm, also. someday....

38-70 bullet we shoot is groove-less but hot dipped in a special lube...dunno the formula for it... Wt is 172 gr. Mould made by Paul Jones...best mould maker I know of and perfect concentricity. 38/70 is an original old cartridge but only ever chambered in the Win 1886 and only for a few years. Case is slightly necked down 45/90 and trimmed a bit. BBL. custom made by Dan Lilja. I'll take a pic of a round later and post it here

Ok...for anyone interested here are three cartridges. Typical 45/70 on the right, 38/70 in the middle and 45/90 on the left with 540 gr bullet seated out to engage the rifling.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1355847048.jpg

Hey Mark,

The picture is not the best in the world. Pls put a 30.06 then a 5.56 round with these so that the guys who have never handled this can see the size difference. These rounds are massive...

Joe A

Here is a photo showing relative size of a number of common (and not so common) cartridges. These are all ones I'm currently reloading.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1355851817.jpg

From left to right:

.357 mag 158g cast, .357 mag 158g JSP, .45 ACP 200g cast, .45 ACP 230g cast, .45ACP 230g JHP, .44 Special 250g cast, .44 mag 300g cast, .45 Colt 270g cast, .45 Colt 300g cast, .223 50g V-Max, .220 Swift 60g V-Max, .220 Swift 60g Sierra, 6.5x55 160g Sierra, .30-'06 180g Failsafe, .30-'06 200g Partition, .375 H&H 300g Sierra, .45-70 400g cast, .45-70 400g Speer, .45-70 540g cast, .458 Win Mag 500g Hornady, .45-2.6 Sharps 550g cast.

what in the world is that bullet to the left of the .308 moly bullet? (i think it is .308...)

edit: ah... 6.5x55 160g Sierra. that is a LONG bullet. i've seen some guys shooting that particular rifle at the range. they were deadly accurate.

OK Joe...

Here ya' go but Jeff really beat me to it in spades...

Right to left.. 50 BMG, 416 Rigby, 45/90, 38/70, 270 WSM, 223, 30 Carbine, 38 Spcl, 22 Magnum

I have several rifles that shoot all but the 50BMG and 416 Rigby but have shot the Rigby...once ;) You really need to lean into that one shooting off hand. I wouldn't dream of shooting a 50 BMG off hand. Guess I left out the 45/70 this time... oh well.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1355858907.jpg

[QUOTE=Jeff Higgins;7157187]Here is a photo showing relative size of a number of common (and not so common) cartridges. These are all ones I'm currently reloading.

Jeff,
Quite a collection and amazing that you reload all those, meaning you must have arms that chamber each one which is even more impressive. Hats off to you, Amigo ;)

Thanks, Mark - there is indeed a fine line between "hobby" and "addiction". ;)

Funny, when I think about it, there are only four calibers shown in that photo for which I only have one firearm. All the rest feed at least two arms, if not more. Many more, in some cases...

That's some kinda nice gun collection... I'll send you my address and you can put me in your will :D

Pleasure chatting with you. You are always a good source of info on gun stuff.

My pleasure, Mark. It's always fun chatting it up with a knowledgeable fellow enthusiast. Not many bullet casters around, especially ones that wade into the deep end of the pool - the black powder cartridge rifle game.

I well remember the firestorm Mr. Theodore stirred up with his early experiments with that .38-70. You asked me if I was familiar with his efforts some time back in another thread. I didn't realize you were one of the guys playing around with that number as well. I've tried to make bottle necked black powder rounds shoot well, so I have some inkling as to what you guys were going through. My hat's off to you.

While I do have to say I came down firmly on the more "traditional" side of the controversy regarding the use of some of the ideas you guys came up with being employed in competition, I very much respected the advancements in BPCR technology. I have to think that if black powder in cartridges had enjoyed a bit longer run in the mainstream, that is where we would have eventually wound up. Oh well, we'll never know. All I know is that "smokeless powder is a passing fad". :D

Jeff, I had no idea that you knew Dan Theodore but then I guess most avid BP shooters know him.. He's been a good friend for many years and I always enjoyed shooting with him. I had to give up prone shooting because of severe arthritis in my left shoulder...the one you really lean on. I had a great time then, though, and under the tutelage of Dan several of us got better than we otherwise would have. The conversion from 45/70 to 38/70 never stopped costing us barrels of money though...LOL...It does shoot will but not as good in wind...which we always seemed to have plenty of. I still do have the rifle but have not fired it in a long while. I may try to get into lever rifle silhouette which is just as much fun. No more Creedmoor though. Got to Master Class in that before I had to quit which made me happy as heck. I had good spotters...

Dan, as you may recall, went thru a bunch of criticism re: his 38/70 with people challenging it's originality as an old caliber and not a wild cat. He weathered it well, but I don't think he ever won any big matches with it. I should look for a BPCR (Browning) bbl and turn it back into an 45/70. The one I took off had a ring in the chamber so it's gone. Also messed around a bit with his version of 38/50 which he made from 30/40 Krag brass. It wasn't as good.

Guess we'll talk down the trail.. Always a pleasure...