Floor Tile Question
 

I'm hoping Trekkor or someone will chime in here:

I am replacing the tile floor in my bathroom, the total area is under 50 sq ft.

The old ceramic was on top of 1/4" underlay plywood which was nailed to the sub floor. The plywood is level with the hardwood floor outside the bathroom. I have removed all the old tile and the mortar (it was pretty easy to remove).

What is the right way to do this? I am thinking I should pull the plywood and instal cement backer board. Option two would be Ditra underlay, three would be a scratch coat on the plywood (possibly with mesh), and four would be tile on plywood.

I want to do it right (regardless of the effort involved) , AND next minimize the 'step-up' into the bathroom.

Lastly, how hard is it to lay marble (12"x12")? I have lots of ceramic experience, no marble experience....

Can't help with the underlayment question but I just finished laying 12x12 marble.

Turned out great. No issues except some broken tiles due to the veining. Choose your cuts carefully based on veins which are the weak spots.

Highly recommend installing an electric mat heat system. Everyone in the house loves the warm floor.

Try and get the floor as level or flush, I should say, with the finish floor on the outside and deduct 3/8" to 1/2" for the stone. Depending on how much build up is needed to achieve this, Hardibacker board can be used right on top of the plywood. If there is no rot, then screw down the plywood to the floor joist for some additional strength. Does the floor bounce? If the sub floor(plywood) isn't coming out, do you have access to get under there for some additional blocking between the joist? That will stiffen the floor a bit to eliminate bounce. Glue the Hardibacker to the plywood and tile on top of that. Another method is builder paper the whole floor and screw down Hardibacker to the subfloor and make sure you get a few screws (long suckers and not drywall screw) on the joist for a better installation. if the floor is nice and level without dips, then you are ready to set the stone. Fill the dips with self leveling compound if there are any.

Setting stone is just like setting regular tile. Make sure you use the correct thinset. In general, Mapei is what we use with great result. GEt us a photo will ya.

I will get photos tonight.

No rot. No bounce....

We had the same issue. The way we handled it, was to slope the last piece of tile.
Here are a few pictures.
2 of the bath entry and 2 of the kitchen entry.
The first of each set shows the entry view and the second shows the angle from the side. If you look at the casing, you can see how much they needed slope.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1357665669.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1357665699.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1357665749.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1357665777.jpg

Oh I forgot to say how they did it. Our underlayment was level with the wood floor too.
What they did was use no underlayment where the tile would angle, that way the front tile edge matches the floor. Then build up the area underneath with cement so the back edge is level with the rest of the tile floor.

Seems to be holding up well. The bath is about 6 years old and the kitchen 1.

Start with the original subfloor.

Install a long screw next to each nail. ( 2" or longer )

The hardie backer must be embedded in modified thin set with a 1/4x1/4 notched trowel or you will:

1. void the manufacturer's warranty.
2. likely get cracks in the tile
3. may hear pops or creaks in the floor when walked on.

I fasten the backer with 1.25" roofing nails. Tape the joints with fiberglass mesh using high quality thinset.

You may need to use a self leveling material to assure that the floor is very flat, given the type of tile you have selected.

With marble use a 1/2x1/2 or 3/4x3/4 notched trowel with a high quality thinset.
Take you time. Do not let the installation creep out of square.
Any lippage from adjoining tile to tile will look and feel awful ( especially on bare feet )

Pre-seal the marble with 511 Impregnator prior to grouting.
Use a stiff non-sanded grout and do not over wash or use excessive water in your sponges.
Do not attempt to remove all of the grout streaks, rather concentrate on a quality grout joint fullness and finish.

Re-apply a coat of sealer and buff dry.


Have fun~ Don't rush!
Marble or granite tiles are among the most difficult to install properly.


KT

Use a transition strip that matches or compliments the floor of the surface adjoining the bathroom.


Let me know if I can be of any further assistance. :)


KT

There are some good pics of the process in this thread:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/342270-anatomy-tile-bathroom-remodel.html


KT

+100 on the heated floor. We love ours and every guest that spends the night and walks on the guest bathroom floor in bare feet love it.

My bathroom will be heated. The room monkeys can wear slippers in their bathroom.

Actually for the small cost I expect I will add it. But not wire it until I sell the house....

My recommendation:
You need 1/4 inch hardie board on the subfloor to keep the mortar under the tile moist while it sets. You want it to cure, not dry out and wood sucks the moisture out of it. Use thinset between the hardie board and the subfloor and screw the hardie down with 1 1/4" screws every 8 -12 inches (this may be a climate issue, around here we have a wide temp/humidity variance and really need to keep things tight). Marble is touchy because you have to be very careful setting it into the mortar to get it flush and level. It cracks more easily than porcelain so you can't pound on it as much. Have 4 foot and 2 foot levels and keep checking for level and flush. Take your time, mortar is cheap.

Tile Floor
 

When installing a tile floor, you should have a minimum of 1 1/4" Plywood total measure. Also, make sure it is screwed down well (every 4 - 6"). I have done many tile floors and never had a problem using this rule. Any less, your grout joints will be constantly cracking from flexing. There is an unlayment you can use if you do not have plywood, but it is expensive.

Use Ditra, it's what I am putting down in our basement bathroom we are just building along with the full Schluter shower system.

+1. Pro Advice here. Take it.

A few pics:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1357736417.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1357736444.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1357736478.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1357736498.jpg

One more question: Should my vanity sit on the backer board? Or should I tile under it?

I just used a piece of redoak.
Before
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1357750888.jpg

After
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1357750928.jpg

Using ONLY the method I described above gets my clients a lifetime guarantee.



KT

Yep. After seeing the pics, the floor looks great. Like Trek said, screw down the sub floor to the joists, glue the Hardibacker boards and nail /screw them down. Fill the void with the same thickness pplywood and screw it down.

toilet goes on the finish tile floor. Check the floor and don't forget the self leveling compound.

So I remove the plywood, screw the existing sub-floor to the studs, and put the Hardi board on the subfloor with thin-set?

Yes!

That way you qualify for the 20 year warranty with James Hardie.


KT

Reviving an old thread here. Lots of good information. I have a bathroom VERY much like the OP. Hallway bathroom. Raised foundation plywood floor from the 70s. It currently has laminate floor (poor choice put in by PO at time of sale). I put down laminate in the hallway and most of the rest of the house.

It looks like I have a good set of instructions here from the best, but my main worry is the stack height of the tile and hardibacker exceeding the hallway significantly. With a door, I can't do any of this wedging tricks seen above. How can I check this without ripping up the existing floor? I want to plan this out carefully ...

My plan is to pull out the vanity and toilet, tile all of that, and then install a new vanity and re-install the toilet (if it still meets my wife's spec, not fitting the vanity). The tub will stay, it is pretty decent, aside from the 80s color. New shower door will be all it needs. I have only laid tile once in my life helping a friend. I think I can handle it. And if it doesn't come out perfect, that's fine - I never use that bathroom. Only the kids and guests! :)

G

All of my tile floors are level with my 3/4" hardwood, but I still use stained hardwood door thresholds. A couple of areas aren't level...fireplace, etc.....a good flooring supply place will have ones that accomodate height differences.

I was able to get a view at the stack in the floor heater/ac vent!

1" thickness on top of the subfloor, made up by particle board, foam moisture barrier and laminate floor.

I guess 1" should be plenty to put the HardieBacker down and tile on top, coming out level with the hallway! Right?

Thanks!

G

So, what type of tile is easy to lay for a novice? I laid some at a friends house (kitchen), but we drank a lot of beer and it wasn't my house. ;) I already learned above that marble is out.

I would think a fairly large size would be good, and also contemporary. Something that doesn't show the dirt and is easy to clean.

Thanks!

G

hardiebacker installed directly over the subfloor is the best method if you do not need additional thickness to transition to an existing adjoining floor elevation.

Most tiles floors over hardiebacker finish at .75" above subfloor, which is perfect for transitions to hardwood or carpet.

We just remodeled the kitchen and 3 bathrooms. We used ceramic tile, 12x24" set in a staggered pattern with 1/16" grout spacing. One thing we don't like is that we picked out a matte finish, which shows dirt very easily. If you don't wear shoes indoors, that's not a big problem. But with kids and pets it gets dirty easily and shows everything. In the kitchen it's a real disaster. So whatever you do, don't pick a light grey matte porcelain tile.

You are going to remove foam and laminate correct?

Ok, I got going with my work a long time later ... and followed the advice here. I have the hardibacker down but need to flatten the floor out more. I already did a little with more thinset on the low spots under the hardibacker but it was pretty extreme. There is one floor joist running the lenght of the room. And the side where the tub is on has sagged with time (almost 50 year old house). So, I'll go back with some leveler, and massage that side of the room. Of course the other side of the joist sags too, but less, so I am targeting flat, not level.

At any rate, once I have the prep work done, I can't wait to put down some tile. The room is only 5x10.

Question: For a beginner, do you recommend smaller or larger tile?



My assessment:
Smaller tile pro: Easier to cut and lay around nooks and crannies. Less important to have perfectly flat base. (?)
Smaller tile con: Lots of pieces, more grout, more pieces to align and keep in a straight line.

Larger tile pro: Less pieces, faster (?)
Larger tile con: Harder to cut for nooks and crannies, not so good over non perfectly flat base.

I found a nice 6x12 and same in 12x24. Don't like the idea of squares (4 corners meeting up, and not sure about overlapping them by 1/2?)

Thanks!

G

Go smaller; doesn’t really take much longer and the floor irregularities won’t be as pronounced.

Big tiles in a small area might look odd as well. Big tiles are actually harder to install as if you get voids under them while you’re trying to get the heights matched up they will crack later.

I actually laid out the tiles covering the whole kitchen area three different ways before deciding...mebbe mix the two different sizes....seems ready for being staggered with no cuts! Have you considered diagonal runs ;)?
Oh yeah...all my floors after the Hardi is down are flat....good luck! Don't have the tile grout line running directly over where you have the Hardi seam if avoidable. Smaller tiles...much easier to work with....

Diagonal! Haha!:eek:

I brought the floor 1/4 inch up already on the low spots with the hardibacker. There is another 1/4 inch to go. I did not want to do it all with thinset under the hardibacker, as I read that it has its limitations on how thick you can put it on there due to shrinkage. We will see how it goes.

Reading more, people claim that larger tile makes a smaller room look lager. I don't know. 6x12 isn't exactly small. Maybe some more of you chime in. I like the idea of 6x12 and going slow, so I can always jackhammer the last section if I have a bunch of lippage.

How wide should I plan my grout? I read wider is better for the idiot DIYer.

G

Yours is about the same size as my first project years ago...12x12 w/ 1/4" spacers (bought a pack of rubber/plastic thingys)....just a personal thing, but that looks right for my area...

I despise grouting with a passion....KT is da man ;)!

This definitely will never be my favorite activity, I can already tell, if nothing else, because you are on the ground! Specifically, if you mess up, it seems it isn't easy going back unless you love to drive a Hilti. I'll take my time. It will be a few weeks before vanities show up. And then I get to do it again in the master bedroom, by then I should be better.

If there are no other inputs, I'll go with the 12x6, the more I read, the more it sounds like it is easier to put it down without lippage and over a non-perfect base.

G

Done
 

So, the floor definitely was the biggest PITA of the project, manly because it wasn't flat. I used leveling compound to do the rest, worked like a charm, but of course you have to come up with a way to seal the edges so it doesn't run into the walls etc.

The biggest flatness problem in the end were the fiberglass tape connections between the hardibacker boards. I sanded them flat all the way where I'd get into the tape but these were still not even with the rest of the floor. I had to pay good attention to not get any lippage around these areas.

Happy to report that after grout I was able to slide a 5 gallon bucket across the entire floor without it hanging up anywhere. The 1/16" grout helped.

In the image the floor has a lot of contrast. In real life it is a lot less pronounced, more like a marble. I wanted something that doesn't show dirt easily, and that certainly was accomplished. There were no floor board tiles with this tile set, so I went with wood. Next time I think I'll want to go with tile and will stay away from floors that don't come with floor board pieces.

So, after this I'm taking a couple months break and then dig into the master bedroom. I bought the same vanity and tiles to make it a match.

Thanks for all the great input everyone. And yes, the stack height was perfect to mate with the hallway laminate.

Ghttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1537153805.jpg

Looks fantastic, nice work.