Lance Armstrong again...

[Mark Henry]

I know a CEO in the public trust, who had a secretary do most (if not all, on company time) of this persons Master's homework, research, etc.

Any different?

[jyl]

Need to provide more information. Has he earned $150MM from that ghost-written homework? Lied about it publicly hundreds of times? Lied under oath about it repeatedly? Sued people who challenged him about it, gotten them fired or ruined? Gotten millions of people to donate hundreds of millions to his charity? Used the homework to keep his CEO job for seven years? Beaten dozens of other worthy candidates who didn't have faked homework, driven them to low-level jobs or out of the industry?

[Don Ro]

It'll be interesting to see if he squeezes out a tear or two.
Maybe just a pseudo watery eye - you know, like Obama does.

[Mark Henry]

Originally Posted by jyl

Need to provide more information. Has he earned $150MM from that ghost-written homework?
No but has a damn good high pay job in the public sector.

Lied about it publicly hundreds of times?
Flaunts their credentials in the public record.

Lied under oath about it repeatedly?
I don't know, maybe if ever asked to witness.

Sued people who challenged him about it, gotten them fired or ruined?
I'd say yes or they would do this, that's why I'm being careful.

Gotten millions of people to donate hundreds of millions to his charity?
Change it to "Gotten thousands of people to donate millions to his charity?" then it would be yes.

Used the homework to keep his CEO job for seven years?
Yes.

Beaten dozens of other worthy candidates who didn't have faked homework, driven them to low-level jobs or out of the industry?
Most likely.

A cheat is a cheat, how is it different?

[jyl]

Maybe it isn't.

[Tobra]

He was the most scrutinized athlete ever and he never peed dirty or got a bad test. He was not just a liar or a cheat, he was the ultimate liar and cheat. I lost any respect I had for him after he did his wife the way he did. I always preferred Mr LeMond, even before that.

He is an incredible athlete, just not much of a man.

[island911]

Originally Posted by kevin993

The strategy seems pretty simple to me:

1) I just wanted to ride - everybody else that organized or administered the sport were responsible for the rules and testing. They did such an awful job that us riders couldn't be clean and complete. You can't really blame the teams and riders (and me) because we (I) had no choice.
2) The organizers had to know once riders started to use PEDs, but they had a good thing going. They had testing for PR purposes, but wanted us to keep our mouths shut to avoid upsetting their sport. If we said anything to upset the sport, they would find a way to use a negative test to ban us and we wouldn't be able to ride.
3) Since doping was permitted in the "real" rules, we had to make the best of those rules. We had sponsors to look after, employees to take care of and bills to pay - we had obligations, so we had no choice but to use PEDs if those were the "real" rules that the organizers and administrators were going to apply.
4) Yes, I gave reporters and whistle-blowers a hard time about PEDs, but I was just reflecting the pressure that I got from the organizers and administrators of the sport. They looked to me as a leader and I got caught up in enforcing the code of silence that was keeping the sport going.
5) Given all that, I was just doing the best I could in the context of a flawed sport. I didn't make the rules, but had to abide by the rules if I wanted to ride. Everybody else got so greedy.
6) In retrospect, I acknowledge that things happened and mistakes were made. Individual teams or riders aren't worth talking about because they (we) were all in a similar position. However, is there anybody in the organization or administration of the sport that you'd like me to talk about? They're the real culprits - us riders are just victims that got swept up in all the madness.

Years on bump.

I do remember thinking, Lance has that freakishly huge lung capacity, so his winning checks out. And No WAY anyone would go to such extremes to cheat. I mean, for a bicycle race? And yet industrial level cheating happens. Banking clean blood so he could spoof the test? The switcheroo transfusions he had endure... The people paid off or intimidated to go along with the ruse... Force to proclaim, there is no cheating. No Way...

Imagine if this level of cheating happened in other places. Like say, dog racing... or VW emissions... Nah, people would never have such elaborate cheating schemes. Bicycle racing is alone in massive fraud. If the media says someone won a race, they won the race. End of story. there is no cheating. No Way...

[DanielDudley]

You mean like sneaking around forum rules?

That would never happen. I'm sure the moderators would be all over it.

[island911]

Are you saying that threads on ways people cheat belong in PARF? - I can see that.

Certainly Lance Armstrong cheating was a tough pill. We all wanted to believe that he was naturally that good. - that exceptional. And that such a seemingly good guy would not be capable of cheating such a large audience. ...of compelling others to insist "you have no proof" for a decade+.

YET, Even without proof smart people start to extrapolate. ..eyebrows raise... For example, even without proof*, a smart mod might extrapolate that this bump is about something more than decade long undetected cheating machine, hidden from the fans of bicycle racing.

The fact that people cheat is something we should not bury our heads to. NASCAR, Horse racing... cheating abounds. The trick for the observer is to spot it. The trick for the players/racers is to not get too greedy. Lance got greedy and the people previously protecting that racket said enough. Yet I expect that bicycle racing still has cheaters.

* I know, no proof needed here.

[tcar]

He did for the TdF on TV, and riding in general, what Tiger did for golf on TV and golfing in general.

Both very suddenly adios for unpleasant reasons.

[smadsen]

About 15 years ago Lance used to organize a charity bike ride somewhere in Texas. A co-worker friend was an avid bike rider and fighting what he knew were a series of losing battles with brain tumors. He raised a few hundred bucks for the ride and flew (from L.A.) to Texas for the experience of riding with Lance and a few thousand of his close personal friends, never thinking they'd meet. Lance actually searched him out before the ride and they had a quiet conversation alone for five minutes r.e. cancer & surviving & attitude.

My friend passed away about a year later, but that ride and meeting Lance meant a lot to him.

Say what you will, Lance may be a squid of the first order, but I'd prefer to believe there is a small bit of humanity in there somewhere trying to find a way out.

[bkreigsr]

Originally Posted by tcar

He did for the TdF on TV, and riding in general, what Tiger did for golf on TV and golfing in general.

Both very suddenly adios for unpleasant reasons.

I think you're of Greg LeMond's influence on American cycling.

[pmax]

The guy was a legend according to media.

That's what took so long.

[Fast Freddy 944]

He lived over in Plano Texas back in the day, man this is old news. He is disgraced, move on..

[Tishabet]

Originally Posted by island911

Years on bump.

I do remember thinking, Lance has that freakishly huge lung capacity, so his winning checks out. And No WAY anyone would go to such extremes to cheat. I mean, for a bicycle race? And yet industrial level cheating happens. Banking clean blood so he could spoof the test? The switcheroo transfusions he had endure... The people paid off or intimidated to go along with the ruse... Force to proclaim, there is no cheating. No Way...

Imagine if this level of cheating happened in other places. Like say, dog racing... or VW emissions... Nah, people would never have such elaborate cheating schemes. Bicycle racing is alone in massive fraud. If the media says someone won a race, they won the race. End of story. there is no cheating. No Way...

You brought back a 7 year old thread for this? There's a reason we relegated you to PARF. Spare us.

[island911]

Sorry man, I shouldn't have brought up the VW cheating emissions thing - that was a bit PARFY. And clearly some are still very sensitive about it.

Let's just all pretend that cheating doesn't happen, ok?