Lance Armstrong again...

[Dottore]

The German news magazine Der Spiegel carried an 8 page feature on Lance Armstrong this week. It summarizes the doping evidence — about which there is no more doubt — and the systematic way in which Armstrong lied about this over the years, the crude intimidation tactics he employed with close friends and teammates to keep them towing the line, the corruption and the payoffs etc. etc.

I must say I've really had to revise my view of the man in light of this and similar articles that are now appearing. He comes across as a supremely arrogant and vicious liar who was absolutely ruthless with people who stood in his way or contradicted his methods.

That is on the one hand. On the other hand there are the Tours that he won. And the charity work.

I gather that he's going to appear on Oprah this coming week to confess and seek public absolution for all these years of lies and cheating. I gather he sees this as his best move in order to salvage something of his career. People who know him claim the man absolutely cannot be contrite, and that this whole Oprah thing will be a huge charade.

So what do you guys think? Are you prepared to accept his apology?

[onewhippedpuppy]

Fraud and a cheater.

[Don Ro]

Originally Posted by Dottore

Are you prepared to accept his apology?

Apology needs to be defined.
His act won't be an apology.
Just like politicians and skilled liars, we're seeing the relationship he has with himself. His psychological atmosphere has successfully expanded its interiority to accommodate deception. The most we can hope for in life is to learn to recognize this apparatus in others prior to being at the effect of its strategy. It's called 'Loss of Self'...the wheelhouse of narcissistic difficulty.
Evil exists.

[herr_oberst]

Like you, my opinion of his character has slowly but steadily eroded to the point I feel little but pity for him and his current situation.
However, to win a single TDF almost always requires a focus so narrow that all traits of humanity and compassion are relegated to secondary status. Total dedication. I used to be a big fan of the Tour, and the men who conquered it. These days, not so much, but still a huge appreciation for what a man does to compete and win such a trial.
(A lot of TDF winners are @ssholes and liars and cheats. Lance did all of those things better.)
I couldn't care less what he says to Oprah. Very little significance AFAIC.

[cstreit]

I haven't met many people at the top of anything who weren't ruthless and didn't step on people on their way up. Not condoning it, I'm just saying this should not shock any of us.

[Buckterrier]

Originally Posted by cstreit

I haven't met many people at the top of anything who weren't ruthless and didn't step on people on their way up. Not condoning it, I'm just saying this should not shock any of us.

Good point Chris. It's usually business men or politicians you think about being that way not jocks.
He will look like a complete fool fessing up.

[hpv]

Well I look at it two ways,he is totaly innocent or totally guilty
all the negative testimoney clouds one clear fact he won races !
Another clear fact is his physical condition is phenominal.
Another fact if indeed he took drugs,why is his condition so good ?
All friends that testified are also in great physical condition so one asks
if that's the case why are drugs illegal and what damage do they do ?
Once were past that why not have 2 classes 1 for non dopers & 1 for dopers
and leave it like that ?

[Z-man]

Originally Posted by hpv

Well I look at it two ways,he is totaly innocent or totally guilty
all the negative testimoney clouds one clear fact he won races !
Another clear fact is his physical condition is phenominal.
Another fact if indeed he took drugs,why is his condition so good ?
All friends that testified are also in great physical condition so one asks
if that's the case why are drugs illegal and what damage do they do ?
Once were past that why not have 2 classes 1 for non dopers & 1 for dopers
and leave it like that ?

The way I understand it, doping (or some forms of doping) do not involve drugs.

A person will excercise in high altitudes where the red blood cells become larger in order to carry more oxygen through the body. After excercising in high altitudes, this blood is draw from the body, and before a race, it is injected back into a person's body, increasing the red blood cell count as well as having larger cells at the person's disposal. This allows the competitor to perform better due to the greater ability to absorb oxygen into the body. Thus, the muscles become less fatigued and therefore, endurance is greater.

Armstrong's wins are based on doping in order to gain an unfair competitive advantage over others in the race. So in my view, his accomplishments are moot. He may be a great athlete, but his physical abilities were augmented by doping, which is cheating. Heck - I could win the Tour if I were on a motorcycle instead of a bicycle -- does that make me great? Sadly, I suspect Armstrong could have won some of his Tour races without doping, given his physical conditioning. But he got greedy and now has lost all.

-Z-man.

[greglepore]

He won the tours, no problem with that.

My issue is the bullying and intimidation, especially of those that had nothing to do with the "program"-ie poor Emma O'Reilly etc. He's a creepy guy, sort of the Tony Soprano of the peloton.

And the "good works"? Well I'm just not sure. The LAF behaves like many large charities, sort of a self sustaining corporate thing. Theres no doubt its done some good, but not in the area of research, where it was at least initially touted.

[ckelly78z]

Originally Posted by Dottore

People who know him claim the man absolutely cannot be contrite, and that this whole Oprah thing will be a huge charade.

So what do you guys think? Are you prepared to accept his apology?

Anyone who publicly apoligizes on TV, or using the media in general is not remorseful about thier actions that required such, they are remorseful for being caught.
He is really only sad that he is losing face, not about what his family, friends and associates had to endure to get him to the pinnacle of his sport, or the fallout that follows from being stripped of his acomplishments....he doesn't seem concerned.

[jcommin]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

fraud and a cheater.

+1

[Les Paul]

He was the best of the cheaters. They were all apparently cheating too because you sure don't hear anyone saying they were clean xxxx year and should have won. He lied so long and never tested positive that he became the snowball bounding down the mountain getting bigger and bigger consuming anything and everything in its path.

Oprah? She still has a show?

[flatbutt]

I've lost all interest in him, the Tour and cycling in general. In fact sports and doping is off of my news radar.

[stealthn]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Fraud and a cheater.

Just like every professional athlete out there...

[Aragorn]

Originally Posted by onewhippedpuppy

Fraud and a cheater.

Correct.

Sad thing is, this is the norm in modern sports. Just look at the recent Baseball Hall of Fame nominations. If you cheat and don't get caught could you live with yourself? I don't know how some of these guys do it and still claim they are the best.

I don't think that Armstrong should be absolved just because he finally comes clean after all these years. He knew what he was doing was against the rules... If not in letter, in spirit.

Looks like LeMond is really the best "clean" rider in recent history.

[Don Ro]

Originally Posted by Dottore

and the systematic way in which Armstrong lied about this over the years, the crude intimidation tactics he employed with close friends and teammates to keep them towing the line, the corruption and the payoffs etc. etc.
I gather that he's going to appear on Oprah this coming week to confess ...

"I'm sorry [that I got caught]".
.
To even approximate an authentic admission/confession he'll need to invite any and all who he impacted along the way...look them in the eye and lay himself out for them to say how he impacted them. If so, I'd even break down & watch Oprah, America's queen of spiritual materialism.

[RANDY P]

Everybody rolled over on him. Bad karma / cosmic justice from being an azzhole all these years. They TRIED to get him.

[Ferraripete]

Originally Posted by greglepore

He won the tours, no problem with that.

My issue is the bullying and intimidation, especially of those that had nothing to do with the "program"-ie poor Emma O'Reilly etc. He's a creepy guy, sort of the Tony Soprano of the peloton.

And the "good works"? Well I'm just not sure. The LAF behaves like many large charities, sort of a self sustaining corporate thing. Theres no doubt its done some good, but not in the area of research, where it was at least initially touted.

correct. he really handled himself and his charade like a don. he is known by many of us as the biggest ahole in sports...period!!!!!

i have not ever been a fan and i have always known about his game.

[pavulon]

Watched "There Will Be Blood" last night. There seemed to be some parallels to Lance's story.

More broadly:
"Behind every great fortune lies a great crime."
-Honore de Balzac
(and in this situation, some irony)

[BE911SC]

Originally Posted by cstreit

I haven't met many people at the top of anything who weren't ruthless and didn't step on people on their way up. Not condoning it, I'm just saying this should not shock any of us.

Read up on psychopathic/sociopathic behavior and you'll gain insight into what makes such people tick. Lack of contrition, empathy, remorse, guilt, shame are all indicators of psychopathic personalities.