The World’s Biggest Coal Company Is Turning To Solar Energy To Lower Its Utility Bill

[kach22i]

The World’s Biggest Coal Company Is Turning To Solar Energy To Lower Its Utility Bill
The World's Biggest Coal Company Is Turning To Solar Energy To Lower Its Utility Bill | ThinkProgress

This is a remarkable statement from the largest coal company in the world. Coal India produces 90 percent of India’s coal, and not only is it turning to solar as an efficient business practice, it understands India cannot power itself by coal. ...............................

Even so, solar energy is cheap and thriving in India. According to the government, solar power could be cheaper than coal by next year. All of this potential is bringing foreign investment to India. U.S. solar manufacturer First Solar is looking to increase its exports in the next three years enough to raise its market share from 20 percent to 25 percent. Chinese and European solar firms are the main competition with U.S. and domestic Indian solar companies. The U.S. is fighting to keep that market share open in the face of possible rules that require solar energy firms to buy inputs from domestic manufacturers.

I thought India had some nuclear power too, is that right?

[sammyg2]

BS.
Take away all the gubmint subsidies and see how they really compare.

Cost per MWh (2010$)

Conventional Coal $99.6 mwh
Solar PV $156.9 mwh
Solar Thermal $251.0 mwh

[Cajundaddy]

That sounds really good... until you actually look at the math.
U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) - Source

I am no fan of coal and I don't see a way yet to refine it for clean energy. I'd love to choose cleaner alternatives for electrical generation. Lets not make stuff up about how much cheaper PV electricity will be. It won't. Think Progress routinely makes stuff up and twists the facts to favor the political left. Probably not the most reliable news source IMO.

[Rick Lee]

I have solar panels on my house and, even with the gov't. subsidies, it's about break even. Before I had the panels, I spent a whopping $1300 per year on electricity. If I hadn't gotten a $500 rebate from the solar panel company, it'd be a total wash. The only savings for me is that I'm locked into a rate for 20 yrs. and so am protected against inflation and the utility's increases. If I had paid for this all with my own money, it'd take me 17 yrs. to break even. And PV panels don't last forever either.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by kach22i

[B]
I thought India had some nuclear power too, is that right?

They have nuclear power, but India is still an emerging economy. Much of the country is still without an electrical grid. The fact that they still have to build a lot of transmission lines and build power plants makes local production via solar and wind more attractive. Coal isn't the solution for everyone and neither is solar. I don't think that's a bad thing.

[tadink]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

They have nuclear power, but India is still an emerging economy. Much of the country is still without an electrical grid. The fact that they still have to build a lot of transmission lines and build power plants makes local production via solar and wind more attractive. Coal isn't the solution for everyone and neither is solar. I don't think that's a bad thing.

AND THAT ^ is exactly the point - local generation that does not rely on a grid is much preferred in emerging economies that need to build a grid to get the power to the people. Coal is cheap, however, transmission is NOT. If you have to build a grid, then the centralized model the US is used to is out the window.

Further, in some parts of the US, it is impossible to get any more power into the population centers without transmission upgrades....the whole NE for instance. So local generation (solar, wind) makes a LOT of sense....much easier to site local solar production on rooftops than to get either transmission upgrades or a new coal gen facility sited.

One more fact - solar is already at par with other utility generation at certain rate structures, without incentives or gov't support. Mid peak in CA, solar is the winning generation source. Also, solar occurs very near the peak consumption of the day -

As technology increases in the storage biz, solar feeding batteries, or cars, that can thn be used off-peak will create some very interesting opportunities for us all.

td

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

BS.
Take away all the gubmint subsidies and see how they really compare.

Cost per MWh (2010$)

Conventional Coal $99.6 mwh
Solar PV $156.9 mwh
Solar Thermal $251.0 mwh

Once again... the above does NOT take into account the health costs from burning coal, much less transporting it.

Coal contains mercury, and Hg is a neurotoxin.

There are lots of other problems with coal too - ash disposal, CO2 emissions, strip mining or mountain top removal; deep shaft mining entails pollution and risks as well

burning coal to make electricity is about like burning dirt

[RWebb]

Originally Posted by Cajundaddy

how much cheaper PV electricity will be. It won't. ...

eh?

it is pretty easy to look a cost curve vs. time


Rick - PV panels here have a 20 yr guarantee (but I didn't install them - partly b/c I have a nearly flat roof which will need to be redone in a few years)

[Cajundaddy]

Originally Posted by RWebb

Once again... the above does NOT take into account the health costs from burning coal, much less transporting it.

Coal contains mercury, and Hg is a neurotoxin.

There are lots of other problems with coal too - ash disposal, CO2 emissions, strip mining or mountain top removal; deep shaft mining entails pollution and risks as well

burning coal to make electricity is about like burning dirt

Actually I believe levelized cost does consider fuel transportation costs. I am with you on coal generation though. The sooner we eclipse it with cleaner technology the better. Nat gas, nuke, geothermal all have a proven 50 year history of clean generation in the US in addition to wind and solar without a bunch of human side effects.

In small rural towns in India, solar panels might be useful as long as they have NG or other fuel generation for when the sun goes down and they want lights. Energy storage is the achilles heel of solar.

[wdfifteen]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

BS.
Take away all the gubmint subsidies and see how they really compare.

Cost per MWh (2010$)

Conventional Coal $99.6 mwh
Solar PV $156.9 mwh
Solar Thermal $251.0 mwh

Sammy, don't let the fact that the article is about INDIA dissuade you from quoting US statistics.

[Scott R]

Last time I was India the smaller towns all used NG cylinders inside the home for cooking. However they did use electricity for television, seems like everyone had a NG stove and a TV. Probably a good place to use solar really.

[tadink]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

Sammy, don't let the fact that the article is about INDIA dissuade you from quoting US statistics.

LOL - or the fact that the figures you are quoting are from 2010 and PV panel costs have dropped about 50% since then....

[Cajundaddy]

Originally Posted by tadink

LOL - or the fact that the figures you are quoting are from 2010 and PV panel costs have dropped about 50% since then....

Well... even looking at 2018 estimates of levelized cost, Nat gas generation is 1/4 the cost of PV and it runs when you want it to run. Math and useability are both important. I am not suggesting no use of PV, only that it is still very expensive and doesn't work to keep the lights on at night.

U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) - Source

[tadink]

Originally Posted by Cajundaddy

Well... even looking at 2018 estimates of levelized cost, Nat gas generation is 1/4 the cost of PV and it runs when you want it to run. Math and useability are both important. I am not suggesting no use of PV, only that it is still very expensive and doesn't work to keep the lights on at night.

U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) - Source

OK, I'll take this bait -

LCOE (Levelized Cost of Energy) is a very complex equation that does NOT take into account transmission costs, nor does it have any way of predicting the actual cost of Nat Gas - you have to use some assumptions. IF you use the current rate for NatGas (essentially free!), then the LCOE predicted for NatGas Gen is very low. However, if you use either historical averages or a weighted average estimate for NatGas (acknowledging that this 'frac-gas' bubble is temporary), AND you put in the costs of transmission, then the LCOE equation looks completely different.

I guess I'm saying, let's not toss our comments about 'how expensive' PV is without looking at the rest of the equation. A PV purchase today is essentially locking in a price for electricity (pre-paying) for the term of the evaluation. For many - like those concerned about using fossil fuels for electricity generation - this investment makes sense.

This discussion started in India, and has evolved into a discussion about the relative costs (first costs) of coal, and now natgas vs. PV. I conclude, being somewhat knowledgable in the solar industry, that PV for India makes sense, their loads are coincident with max generation, the generation can be located near the load centers, and there is no need for expensive transmission.

For US consumers, your conclusions *may* be different, but the growth of solar in the US is skyrocketing, so many feel this is a valid investment.

For me - I'd rather pay for my electricity using my own assets (PV array) vs. using the assets of the Utility company.....

You may draw a different conclusion...but this is a good discussion nonetheless....

td

[Scott R]

Originally Posted by tadink

OK, I'll take this bait -

LCOE (Levelized Cost of Energy) is a very complex equation that does NOT take into account transmission costs, nor does it have any way of predicting the actual cost of Nat Gas - you have to use some assumptions. IF you use the current rate for NatGas (essentially free!), then the LCOE predicted for NatGas Gen is very low. However, if you use either historical averages or a weighted average estimate for NatGas (acknowledging that this 'frac-gas' bubble is temporary), AND you put in the costs of transmission, then the LCOE equation looks completely different.

I guess I'm saying, let's not toss our comments about 'how expensive' PV is without looking at the rest of the equation. A PV purchase today is essentially locking in a price for electricity (pre-paying) for the term of the evaluation. For many - like those concerned about using fossil fuels for electricity generation - this investment makes sense.

This discussion started in India, and has evolved into a discussion about the relative costs (first costs) of coal, and now natgas vs. PV. I conclude, being somewhat knowledgable in the solar industry, that PV for India makes sense, their loads are coincident with max generation, the generation can be located near the load centers, and there is no need for expensive transmission.

For US consumers, your conclusions *may* be different, but the growth of solar in the US is skyrocketing, so many feel this is a valid investment.

For me - I'd rather pay for my electricity using my own assets (PV array) vs. using the assets of the Utility company.....

You may draw a different conclusion...but this is a good discussion nonetheless....

td

I won't disagree with anything you posted, however there are some costs you might not be aware of for a true PV system. I've discussed before that I have a large system on my mountain house and panels and batteries do go bad.

I've lost several to hail damage, another few due to condensation leaks, and still another few to them just simply not performing anymore.

Secondly I have a big expense in batteries nearly annually. I'm replacing a 1/3 of my batteries every year due mostly to exposure related issues, but also due to them just wearing out. Not to mention that safety equipment you need to monitor the hydrogen venting in case one of them decides to explode and burn your house down.

It's actually such a pain that I'm going to have a Clear Edge installed instead as soon as the county approves the permit.

[RWebb]

Clear Edge ??

[Scott R]

Originally Posted by RWebb

Clear Edge ??

Let me google that for you:

Residential Fuel Cell Systems | ClearEdge Power

Takes care of my heat, my hot water, AC, and it works at night and during a snow storm. My across the creek neighbor has one and it's fantastic. The thing sits outside and up the hill from his house, so unlike my battery bank if it explodes it just takes out itself.

Not to mention I don't have to junk up my roof with a lot of panels anymore.

[Cajundaddy]

Originally Posted by Scott R

Let me google that for you:

Residential Fuel Cell Systems | ClearEdge Power

Takes care of my heat, my hot water, AC, and it works at night and during a snow storm. My across the creek neighbor has one and it's fantastic. The thing sits outside and up the hill from his house, so unlike my battery bank if it explodes it just takes out itself.

Not to mention I don't have to junk up my roof with a lot of panels anymore.

This looks like a much more workable solution than PV or wind. Power and heat on demand and not fully exposed to the elements. I have used PV in various applications for 30 years and it seems like I am always fixing it. panels fail, contacts corrode, high wind tosses it into the next county... arggh! Not exactly the panacea it was sold to be.

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by wdfifteen

Sammy, don't let the fact that the article is about INDIA dissuade you from quoting US statistics.

Don't let a little homework dissuade you from a basic understanding of the topic.
I was talking about India but used equivalent US dollars for ease of comparison.
Note that as I said, not only are they providing incentives to pay for a significant portion of the solar power, they are also raising taxes on coal making it more expensive.
If it takes that level of manipulation and market-manipulation to even the playing field its nothnig more than a scam.

The Indian Government’s launch of the ambitious Jawaharlal Nehru National Solar Mission(JNNSM) was done with much fanfare with a target of reaching 20 GW of Solar Capacity by 2022 under 3 phases from the 81 MW currently.While the government had the best intentions and had laid down a well defined 10 year plan with subsidy support for both Solar Thermal and Solar PV Technology,it has already run into problems.Due to high interest the government went in for bidding of projects which led to irrationally low bidding from unknown firms.This has put the entire exercise in question with the the biggest private utility saying JNNSM is a failure.Without extensions of deadlines it looks highly unlikely whether the 37 winners will actually put up the plants.

JNNSM is divided into 3 phases with the ultimate goal of reaching grid parity with coal by 2030.I don’t know where they came with the 2030 figure as I think solar should reach grid parity much earlier and should be below coal cost much before

1)Phase I (up to 2012/2013) – remaining period of 11th five yr plan & first yr of 12th yr plan Target of 1100 MW
2) Phase II (2013-2017) – remaining 4 yrs of 12th five yr plan Target of 3000-10000 MW
3) Phase III (2017-2022) – 13th five yr plan 20000 GW overall


The Objectives of the Solar Mission

1) Solar Lighting-Deploy 20 million solar lighting systems for rural areas

2) Solar Heaters – Achieve 15 million sq. meters by 2017 & 20 million by -2022 of solar thermal collector area

3) Solar Manufacturing – Global Leader in Solar Manufacturing ( Seems a Pipe Dream right now) with Targets 4-5 GW equivalent of installed capacity by 2020 including setting up of dedicated manufacturing capacities for poly silicon material to annually make about 2 GW capacity of solar cells

4) Off Grid Solar Applications – Solar Mission has set a target of 1000 MW by 2017

Funding of the JNNSM will be done by

1) Renewable Energy Credits (REC) – State Electricity Regulatory Commissions (SERC) to fix a minimum
percentage of energy purchase from renewable sources of energy

2) NTPC’s Trading Arm NTPC Vidyut Vyapar Nigam Ltd ) is chosen as the nodal agency for entering into a Power Purchase Agreement (PPA) with solar power developers. NTPC will mix expensive solar power with cheaper coal power .

3) Incentives

•Zero import duty on capital equipment, raw materials and excise duty
exemption

•Low interest rate loans, priority sector lending

•Coal tax
•Budgetary Support for MNRE though 2011 Budget has not given anything

•UNFCCC Funds – Again not certain as no international agreement


First Phase (How it has fared so far)


Smaller 2 MW PV Projects


India has set a target of 1100 MW for the first phase with around 100 MW allocated for 2 MW projects which have the best chance of being built.Note the 2 MW project winners are already flipping the projects as many non-serious players won the projects.These companies were speculators and has no intention of building the plants anyway

Transfer Projects

It has also allowed 80 MW projects to be transferred to JNNSM rate which has led to strong state objections.The State nodal agencies have also started objecting to the tariff policy as 80 MW of Solar Projects were awarded the base FIT of Rs 17.91 as they were transferred to the Indian Federal Subsidy from their initial PPAs with individual states.Note these solar project developers who have managed to get transferred will get tariffs which are almost 60% higher than the lowest bidder for the 5 MW Solar Project at Rs 10.95.This will also mean a much large taxpayer outgo to the 16 Project Winners for the 80 MW than for the 150 MW projects

Larger PV 5 Projects and Bigger Solar Thermal Plants

The rest of the 620 MW projects are in serious trouble with no major construction happening.The developers might find it profitable to lose their deposit money rather than building the plant.The government will have to potentially bailout these companies if it wants to see its Solar Mission be successful.While the first phase is already in trouble the government is already thinking of auctioning another 296 MW of solar projects in April.Don’t know how that will help as the majority of the First Phase projects are already in trouble

SUMMARY

The First Phase of the JNNSM has not inspired much confidence and compared to successful programs in Germany seems a total failure.State Governments like Gujarat and Rajasthan are pushing solar energy much better than the Federal Government.The fast declining costs of solar energy IMHO will pretty much make this policy obsolete anyway in a couple of years.

India Solar Subsidy JNNSM Guide – What you needed to know | Green World Investor

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by tadink

LOL - or the fact that the figures you are quoting are from 2010 and PV panel costs have dropped about 50% since then....

50%? really? Wow, I had no idea the gubmint subsidies were so effective.
Take away my tax money and see how much that crap really costs.

IF PV was worth a **** the gubmint wouldn't have to financially support the companies pushing the scam, they wouldn't have to bribe consumers to use it, they wouldn't have to financially punish the competition.

But hey, if you're still convinced it's a good idea have a mutli-level investment deal you might want to get into.
No it's not a pyramid scheme, it's a trapezoid! 4 sides means 4 times the return. The trick is to get in on the ground level early in the development, how much can I put you down for?

BTW I was in "the solar business" long ago, before most of you had ever heard of it.
I started working at the solar 1 plant in Daggett in 1980. Thermal plant.
I was planning to make a career out of this wonderful new technological industry, it didn't take long to figure out what a scam it was.
It only existed because the gubmint paid them ot run it. As soon as the gubmit money dried up, they closed it down.
it was just too damn expensive to operate.

Later they re-opened it (with more gubmint money) and called it solar 2. Basically all they did was add miles of PV to it.
That lasted until the gubmint pulled their money out again, then it closed within days. It simply could not compete without artificial support.

I wish it worked. I wish solar energy was the answer and solved all our problems and was a better idea that nat gas or nuke or whatever.
But I won't pretend it is something it is not. I detest the hypocrisy and deception involved with it.