Any Interest in Used Oil Analysis?

[M.D. Holloway]

Just putting out some feelers...anyone interested in used oil analysis? Tests for 20 wear metals, oil ingrediants, oil properties like viscosity and acid, oxidation and even if there is fuel in the oil. I can score kits for $10-$12 each. Turn around time in the lab is <48 hrs. The do tranny fluid and coolant as well.

Let me know if you have some interest. If you think it makes sense, maybe we can convince Wayne to carry them?

[Hydrocket]

Great idea!!

[porsche4life]

Don't have anything that I need it for right now, but access to would be nice?

Could this catch an IMSB failure way earlier than the naked eye?

[M.D. Holloway]

I would say it very well could...looks at all sorts of metals down to the part per million. If sump'n hinky was stirring, OA might turn it up...

[Evans, Marv]

Yes! I'd like to get the oil analyzed for my truck & my little diesel Kubota with millions of hours & maybe my other tractor as well.

[mikester]

sure!

[M.D. Holloway]

I wonder how many folks have to express interest before PP takes note? Sheeet I should just run these through me huh?

[flyenby]

I would be interested. Thanks

[fanaudical]

I'm interested.

[cashflyer]

I use Blackstone and pay about $20.
So... yeah, $10-12 sounds like a bargain.

[bkreigsr]

Lubemaster - How much are we talking?
$10-12 for the kit only?
How much for the analysis, your lab time?
TBN additional?
thanks
Bill K

[M.D. Holloway]

ya TBN included

[slimlynn1]

Interested! So ALL those tests, including TBN for only $10-12?

[BRPORSCHE]

How is the oil analyzed? XRF?

[M.D. Holloway]

Originally Posted by slimlynn1

Interested! So ALL those tests, including TBN for only $10-12?

yup

[M.D. Holloway]

Originally Posted by BRPORSCHE

How is the oil analyzed? XRF?

I guess the best way to understand it is that it can be broken down into 3 areas: Wear metal analysis, contamination analysis and oil condition analysis.

A sample sampl - 4-6 oz sample submitted to mail via fed ex, ups (USPS sucks so don't use them)

The lab enrolls your info and begins testing:


Wear Metals and Wear Debris:

Spectrochemical Analysis for Wear Metals:
The spectrochemical analysis measures different metals in parts per million (ppm) which represent equipment wear, as well as system contaminants and lubricant additives.

The listing below illustrates some major sources of wear metals but does not indicate all possible secondary sources. Abnormal wear is commonly indicated by a combination of metals.
Iron (Fe): Major component material in equipment manufacturing. Housing/Blocks, Cylinders, Pistons, Gears, Bushings, Bearing, Shafts, Valves, Rings, Rust
Chromium (Cr): Cylinders Liners and Guides, Bushings, Bearing, Shafts, Valve, Rods, Rings, Hydraulic Cylinders
Lead (Pb): Bearings/Bushings, Thrust Plates, Washers
Copper (Cu): Bearings/Bushings, Thrust Plates, Washers, Oil Cooler, Pumps, Disc/Disc Lining.
Tin (Sn): Bearings/Bushings, Pumps, Motors, Compressor Piston, Piston skirt overlay
Aluminium/Aluminum (Al): Pistons, Bearings/Bushings, Thrust Washers, Rings, Housing/Blocks, Oil Cooler, Cylinders and Cylinders Guides, Engine After-cooler
Nickel (Ni): Gears, Shafts, Rings, Valve Trains, Bearings/Bushings, Pumps
Silver (Ag): Bearings/Bushings, Oil Cooler, Some Gears and Shafts, Disc/Disc Lining
Titanium (Ti): Bearings/Bushings, Some Gears and Shafts, Turbine Blades, Valve Trains, Gear Trains, Some Shafts (additive in some HDMO’s)
Vanadium (V): Turbine Blades, Some Bearings and Bushings


The spectrochemical analysis measures different metals in parts per million (ppm) which represent contaminants, as well as equipment wear and lubricant additives.
Aluminium/Aluminum (Al): After-cooler Brazing Flux, Dirt if in combination with Silicon.
Boron (B): Engine Coolant
Magnesium (Mg): Seawater if present with sodium
Potassium (K): Engine Coolant, After-cooler Brazing Flux
Silicon (Si): Dirt (especially in combination with aluminium/aluminum and/or sodium), Gasket/Sealant Material, Engine Coolant
Sodium (Na): Engine Coolant, Seawater, by product from Natural gas (wet gas) transferring, Dirt in combination with silicon

Contamination Analysis
Water: Water as a contaminant will generally lead to increased corrosion, depletion of proper lubricating film, decreased lubricant performance life and increased acid formation.

Coolant: Coolant contamination will degrade lubricant service life and performance, create sludge and block lubricant passageways.

Fuel Dilution: Fuel dilution will decrease fluids viscosity, therefore affecting its lubricity properties. Fuel dilution also promotes degradation of lubricant service life and additive properties.

Soot: Excessive soot increases viscosity, creates excessive wear, and will tie up active additives needed for lubricant performance.

Particle Count (typically not done on engines or trannys unless your will to pay more and are really particular). “Clean Systems” require a minimum level of cleanliness in order to operate reliably. This is especially true for circulating systems with high pressure and close tolerance components. The ISO Cleanliness Rating is a convenient way to communicate the level of particulate contamination within a system based on the particle count for micron sizes greater than 4, 6, and 14.

Extra tests:

PQI: PQI is a valuable trending tool for monitoring the relative level of ferrous wear material within a lubricant sample.

Filter Patch: Filter patch inspection provides a visual assessment of wear particle and other solid debris present in a sample after collection on a 0.8 micron to 5.0 micron filter membrane and examined by a microscope.

Analytical Ferrography: Analytical Ferrography provides detailed information on different wear particles present in a sample. This is generally an exception test that provides information on the type of metal makeup of the wear particles present and how they were formed.

Oil Condition Analysis

Viscosity: Improper viscosity can affect a lubricants performance.
Too low of a viscosity will not create sufficient surface film to keep moving parts separated and prevent rubbing on opposing metal surfaces.
Too high of a viscosity will create excessive heat and reduced fluid flow within circulating systems.
A change in viscosity will indicate a change in the fluid performance integrity. A drop in viscosity generally indicates contamination with a lighter product, addition of an incorrect viscosity grade, and in some cases thermal cracking. An increase in viscosity can indicate oxidation and reduced service life due to age, addition of an incorrect viscosity grade, or excessive soot or insolubles content.

Base Number: Base number represents the level of alkalinity reserve available for neutralizing acids formed during the combustion process and may be introduced through recirculated exhaust gases. As the lubricant ages and the additive package depletes, the base number will decrease from its initial fresh oil value.

Acid Number: Acid number in a new lubricant represents a certain level of additive compounding. This can come from antirust, antiwear or other additives. The acid number can drop a bit after a lubricant has been in service for a certain period, which indicates some initial additive depletion. After a time the acid number will start to increase, which indicates the creation of acidic degradation products related to oxidation. The acid number is a means of monitoring fluid service life.

Oxidation Number: The oxidation number is a relative number that monitors increase in the overall oxidation of the lubricant by infrared spectroscopy. This test parameter generally compliments other tests for fluid service life, such as viscosity and acid number. Generally this test is not used as a primary indicator when all other tests are within normal limits. Accurate oil information is required to get the most valid test results.

Nitration Number: The nitration number is a form of oxidation that relates to chemical reaction with nitrogen, forming nitrogenous compounds also. Nitration is a relative number that monitors increase in the overall fluid degradation due to reaction with nitrogen and oxygen by infrared spectroscopy. This test parameter generally compliments other tests for fluid service life, such as viscosity and acid number. Generally this test is not used as a primary indicator when all other tests are within normal limits. Accurate oil information is required to get the most valid test results. Contributors to increased nitration can come from exhaust gas blow-by or reaction with natural gas products with the lubricant and heat. It is also an indicator of electrostatic discharge across filter surfaces in turbine oil.

Sulphation Number: The sulphation number is a form of oxidation that relates to chemical reaction with sulfur compounds also. Sulphation is a relative number that monitors increase in the overall fluid degradation due to reaction with sulfur compounds and oxygen by infrared spectroscopy. This test parameter generally compliments other tests for fluid service life, such as viscosity and base number. Generally this test is not used as a primary indicator when all other tests are within normal limits. Accurate oil information is required to get the most valid test results. Increase in sulphation generally correlates to a decrease in base number.

I hope this helps. If you need more info on the instruments and the ASTM methods used let me know. I dig this stuff!

[sammyg2]

I've made a career out of analyzing machinery condition and improving reliability.
I spend just under $24k a year on oil analysis through
Herguth Laboratories, Inc. | People and Data You Can Count On!
But that's on multi-million $$ machines that run 24/7 for up to 15 years between overhauls, with oil changes on average ever 5 years (1200+ gallon reservoirs).
Overhauls can easily cost a quarter mil.

I do not do it to analyze the condition of the machine, that'd be closing the barn door after the horse got out.
I do it to analyze the condition of the oil to make sure it's not getting contaminated or broken down which could reduce it's effectiveness.
That PREVENTS metal from getting in the oil.
I have a hard time seeing the benefit of analyzing oil that gets replaced multiple times a year.

Using oil analysis to predict an IMSB is kinda like looking at the railroad tracks to see which way the train went.
By the time you have enough Fe, in the oil (that isn't trapped in the filter) to identify a failing ball bearing it's already failed to the point where there's damage to the engine.
Could you reduce the scope of that damage?
Possibly, if you were lucky enough to catch it in that narrow window of time.

You are going to have traces of iron in your oil. That is a given. You are going to have aluminium and copper and tin/lead/zinc in your oil, that's a given.
Is it coming from your oil pump?
Is it coming from the cam or chains?
Is it coming from sleeve bearings?
Is it coming from the rockers?
What is normal? What does good look like?
You just don't know without taking the engine apart.

You'd have to trend the data for a looooong time.

[Amail]

For those who don't know the benefits of oil analysis, how about a quick write-up? What are the options, why should I do it, how much does it cost, how long does it take? Looks like you've already got customers lining up to give you money, you just need to:

1. Give them an easy way to complete their order
2. Come up with some good copy to educate those of us who don't "get it"

Good luck with this! Looks like a winner idea!

*edit* - this thread moves fast! Okay, break it down to simple terms the layman will easily understand.

[bkreigsr]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

I've made a career out of analyzing machinery condition and improving reliability.
....I have a hard time seeing the benefit of analyzing oil that gets replaced multiple times a year. .....

nice response?
.....but for us lightweights out here, I, for one, like knowing what's going on inside my motors (6). In addition to the particulate counts vs. the universal averages, things like viscosity, change interval adjustments, active additives after x amount of miles vs. xxx amount of miles ets, etc. are important to me. None of my less than mulit-million dollar engines gets multiple changes/year - although my wife's DD Accord came back very high in iron (crank, cam, liters, rods etc.) so I'll be ignoring the dashboard reminder and do the change every 3,000 instead of 6,000 to see if iron goes down.
Bill K

[Evans, Marv]

Sammy makes some good comments, but for the cost I'd still like to occasionally (yearly?) get this done to establish baselines and keep on top of things. In the past when I've had oil amylases done, I've gotten the results in the form of raw data without any info on parameters for indicating amounts out of the norm. Actually I already learned something from Mike. My little old Kubota tractor always has sludgy oil when I change it - which is decently often. It's a mid '80s tractor with I don't know how many thousands of hours on it. It runs great with very little smoke. But I'm thinking I should be replacing the oil & filter more often because of lots of soot apparently causing the sludgy condition of the oil. Thanks Mike, I've been thinking about that & wondering if something like fine particulates from blow by or whatever is the cause.