Actually, this does remind of of the housing bubble. Remember those articles about buyers baking cakes and sending photos of their children in order to bribe the seller to take their offer? Yea, we all know how that ended. Trust me, I've been around a few bubbles in my days to know when one is brewing, and when to not get caught up in the herd mania behavior.

I like the idea of showing up with $20k to $25k in cash. This really cuts out the BS, and if the seller has dealt with flake out buyers and/or fake bids on Ebay, he will appreciate the intent. There's something very appealing about hearing "I can drive this thing home with a spare plate 20 mins. from now" This is probably the best way to have some negotiating room, as well. Want $18k? I'll do $15 with this cash right here. For the right seller, he may bite just to end the saga of BS emails from CL, etc. Anyone with a 3.2 doesn't need the $3k anyway.


Well, ironically the Zimmerman "holy grail" of PPI sticky posts seems rather limited.
I would really have expected a better checklist from a 10 year old forum.

No, I'm not remote. There are at least 2 shops in my area. More if I expand to 1 hour. But, the cars are often in remote areas. So, I'd have to travel to the car, and then flatbed the car back to my home area for the PPI.

I'm not nit-picking. I'm trying to figure out how people actually get a PPI done, which just happens to be the #1 ad naseum advice given to every person thinking of buying one. Is getting a PPI now considered " nit-picky concerns over the most stupid details"? Your dad sounds like he's got OCD. Not me.

I totally agree on judging the seller. That is how I buy all my used cars. I've bought used cars for 20 years plus. But, MOST 911's are being sold by flippers and internet auctions. There is no way to judge the real seller. That's also why so few have any service records.

What you're saying is "Buy now or be priced out forever!!"
You know what that sounds like?
Sounds like 2005 real estate before the 50% correction.
Sounds like 1999 dotcom stocks before the 90% correction.
Sounds like 2007 vintage guitars from the 50s. They have tanked 50%.
Same as 60s muscle cars, many of them.
Know anyone who bought AAPL at $700 since it was "guaranteed to hit $1000. AAPL only goes up each day you don't own it"
Yea, I do too. Another 50% correction story that ends in tears.

When people say "911's will only keep going up! I should have bought five of em!! Buy now or be priced out forever" that's a warning sign.
Got one to sell? THAT's when you sell.

One owner said he just doesn't like to keep receipts b/c he doesn't like clutter.

Doing a 2 hour PPI takes 2 hours.
Why do that when they can do a 8 hour book job in 3 hours?
PPI is the lowest margin labor they could do.
The ONLY reason a shop will do a PPI is to get more business in the future.
Loss leader. Like $59 brake jobs.

One seller told me he saved no paperwork b.c he never planned on ever selling the car. Then, one day, they need to sell the car.,


Type?

In the NY/NJ/CT area.

I do agree with the point made that a good deal is going to fly and you need to roll the die (b/c someone else will)
$18k car. No PPI. Take it or leave it,
$25k car. Lots of time for PPI.
That's a good point to note.

well, I think if you knew much about 911's you wouldn't have to waste your time posting here. you seem to know a lot about cars based on the post above

There is absolutely no difference in quality between Carrera and 911SC OG head studs. They are all junk. Shawn on this board just bought a low-miles Carrera from another member and removed the VC to find half-studs with nuts on them rattling around inside.

When we sell a higher value car (like a 911) WE pay a shop to do leak down test and record the numbers. On a 911, we have a valve adjustment done and the shop note the head studs are intact. We provide full disclosure to the sellers and receipts for past work. If we cannot provide the receipt, we do not provide the information that the work has been completed. We vouch for what we know and can PROVE only.

If you want to do a PPI on a car that we are selling, you are welcome to do so. It will be at your expense. I will hold the sale for a couple of business days (3) to allow you to schedule and complete the PPI. I'll even take the car to the shop and drop it off/pick it up afterward, etc. If you cannot schedule it w/in 3 days, I understand...but I will keep the market open on the car as I have it for sale because I'm trying to SELL it. Example, if you cannot get the car in for a PPI for a week and another buyer comes along to pay an agreeable price, I will offer you first chance to take the car as is - and if you decline, then I would sell it to the buyer who is opting to take it now.

This might sound unreasonable to a buyer, but within the idea of me selling my car, which is why I entered the vehicle in the marketplace, this allows me to honor reasonable requests (and take the vehicle out of "sale" for 3 business days to allow a PPI) but does not inhibit me from selling the vehicle to a knowledgeable buyer who is comfortable making the decision with the tools/and/or/experience that they already have.

Also, a word to the wise with a PPI... Unless you SPECIFICALLY request it and pay add'l for it, you will not get the head studs examined. I consider this mandatory on all 3.0 (lacking receipts for a recently done head stud replacement) and even on 3.2's. Seeing more 3.2's with broken head studs. Unless there are receipts to the contrary from a reputable shop, an absolute fire sale price, or an actual physical examination - figure the worst case - they're broken. I'm 3 for 3 (broken studs) on used 3.0 engines.

angela

Yeah, odd thread. The original post screams non-DIY expert, but in the reply he's an expert. Hard to find Porsches near NYC? Please. Try finding 911s near Kansas.

Yup, and he was able to tell by inspection that the car was good enough, and that anything he encountered was fixable without losing his ass. That's how you have to approach a DIY PPI.

To the original poster you must have a ton of money. You must remember you are on an enthusiasts site where they also sell parts, what does that tell you about the people that post here? Most of us are passionate about our cars, do some level of DIY, and would like to purchase a clean and immaculate car, so snatching the first one off of EvilBay is not high on the list of priorities. Let me give you an example of why you need a PPI. A friend of mine is a stay at home mom who has a wife in the banking biz and I would guess her income is 750K+ per year. They wanted a cab and he found a very cosmetically clean 91 cab, first thing I told him was get a PPI. The dealer that had it in upstate NY said he would ship it to him and give him a week return no questions, what could go wrong right??? Calls me a month or so later has a vibration and clutch has issues. Pull the motor, bad clutch, leak down because the mechanic said the car did not pull like it should. 13K later he had the car he thought he was buying. Valves, stem seals, head work, etc.

I am not in that world financially where 13K for my 3rd car would be real appealing. I have a primo 930 with less than 30k miles. I lost the clutch, pulled the engine myself, and found a broken head stud. I had never done anything but light mechanical work on this car but do have some pretty good skills on American iron. I did business with Pelican, EBS Racing, Turbo Craft, and Billy Boat. All of these guys in my opinion have been good to DIY Porsche guys and were happy to answer my novice questions. I did nothing exteme on my car and spent close to 8K in parts and machine services, and only had help timing cams and setting valves from a fellow Pelican to put it back together. This would have cost me probably 12K+ if I had to pay someone.

If this is what you are prepared to do, go ahead and buy a car with no PPI, if not, stay patient and wait for the right car to come to you.

Hads,

No need to sell me on a PPI.
I am trying to make one happen, not justify it.
I have basic DIY skills, but have zero experience with 911s.
I have the garage space to change a spark plug or window regulator or shock, but not drop an engine.
Spending $500 on a PPI to avoid a $25k money pit disaster is a no-brainer for me.

Your friend paid $13k for a top end rebuild?
I thought that was closer to $7k, while a full rebuild was $15k.

Sometimes you get lucky and find a seller true to their word. When I bought my 993 earlier this year I gave the guy a $500 deposit while I arranged a PPI. The PPI was out of my area and a pain in the ass to get done (the seller dropped the car off, though). He promised not to sell the car to anyone else while we were going through the process and he held on to my deposit. Others were inquiring about the car in the meantime.

As mentioned some shops are getting out of doing PPIs and while mine was not performed very professionally (another story) it told me what I needed to know and I bought the car.
I've had to put a couple thousand into it to get it to where it needs to be (basically return to stock and correct some deferred maintenance), but had I waited to find that "perfect" car I would have missed out on a pretty decent car.

I agree that sometimes you can run into a car that if everything looks right, based on your experience, skip the PPI and buy it.

another way of approaching the problem is just watch the forums, in lieu of any other resources I'd trust buying a car here from someone VS CL or worse, EBAY. Nice cars pop up all the time, owned by people who dumped $$$$ into them, and then got tired and moved on.

Here's another hint- scan the West coast and GA. That's where they all landed. In particular I like looking in Portland + WA state and there's an abundance of shops that are easy to get to.

PS- ya, my last purchase was a BMW...With high miles....in a different state.....while I was shopping for ANOTHER car......from a buyer with zero records and only owned the car for several months.......

I paid less for it than your average used Accord of the same era. Said car is now driven daily no issues.

rjp

Thanks Denis...I wasn't sure. I have Anderson's book but couldn't recall the details.

BTW - my first P-car was an '81 SC and after the first year of ownership began to hear the dreaded hissing sound...yup....lower studs...plural. :mad:

A PPI is going to minimize your risk not eliminate your risk.

There is always going to be risk, don't let market conditions rush you in to a marginal buy, no matter the deal.

A good car is an asset, a bad one is a liability.

I pasted on cars when looking for mine that in retrospect would have extracted ample cash from my pocket. A good seller understands the need for verification.

It all depends your tolerance for risk.

They are easier to buy than sell.

Saucy had it right- with any high miles car you're buying the seller- it's his work. If he's a flake and his stuff is junky, be careful.

Otherwise, drive the car. Does it pull when you hit the brakes? Does it smoke bigtime when you start it up? Is there clanking and rattling around the fan?

Look underneath the car- is the factory stone guard still present at the bottom sills and behind the rear wheels?

Oil leaks- observe where the car is sitting- don't be surprised to find a spot, accumulated oil all over the transfer tubes but a major drool is a no no. if you can lift the car, look at the top and bottom of the cylinder jugs and check for fresh oil leakage.

If you can find a G50 car (1987-up) you lessen the chances of a bad tranny- 915 is notorious for failing if abused and no fluid is changed.

Inspect around the battery, all over the rear engine compartment for signs of repair- no original stickers, repaints, improper rust coating textures, etc. etc.

They really are just simple cars, and the summary is if it doesn't look quite right it probably isn't....

Oh except the L to R mirror alignment- viewing down on the car (standing on a balcony) the mirrors don't line up. Normal.

I just quickly wrote a partial list of basic things anyone buying a vehicle should know a little about.
This is even before spending any money on a PPI.

Advanced tire-kicking means knowing what you're paying for.
My main gist was PUT YOUR HANDS ON IT, AND GET DIRTY.

If he was interested, he'd ask here, or in the tech section, or spend 20 minutes on the internet learning how to use the inexpensive tools.
Personally, I'm a not shy, I'm an information whore and put out. Correct or incorrect. Sometimes unwanted. Else, I wouldn't bother to contribute.


I did mention "correct or incorrect", didn't I? ;)
Yes, thx for the correction. OBD2 started in 94-95. Even greater reason to learn to sniff a tailpipe.

The only thing worse than being lonely is being stuck in a bad marriage.
I'd rather not buy a car than risk expensive repairs. This is especially true if you don't know the car and what to look for/look out for. I learned that the hard way with a 380SL even though I knew better. :(

"If you don't buy it now, I've got someone coming back in this afternoon to get it" is straight out of the sleazy used car salesman handbook.

Better to pay extra for a excellent car rather than buying a "bargain" and pouring a ton of money into it. When you're done, you'll have spent more money and time in the bargain then the nice one.

John70t, I'd have no problem doing some hands-on diagnostics myself.
I am here to increase my automotive knowledge and wrenching skills.
I am going to look into those tools you linked to.

Great advice about avoiding a bad car.

Lots of great advice in this thread.
Thanks for sharing your wisdom.

Are you really looking to buy? Seems you just like to collect information. :D

An old 911 is a car, it's not a space shuttle. Find one you like, check for any red flags, buy it, fix the stuff that needs repairing. Even if it's immaculate, stuff will need replacing. This isn't rocket science - keep things simple. Worse case, plan to do an engine rebuild and allot some cash for suspension refresh and so on.

Once you get past the "OMG it's a Porsche!" element, you realize that these things make a Ford Focus look like it's from the future. They are simple mechanical devices, and anyone with mechanical aptitude can fix most things on them.

Bargains... everybody wants a bargain. Unfortunately, they are the cars that need inspection because most of the time in life (mine anyhow) you get what you pay for.

Stop looking for a deal and start looking for an honest car with strong ownership. I tested 3 very nice 915 carreras before I purchased my latest car. None were bargains ($20K to $22K) and I was not looking to steal a car. I must admit the car I bought was from the only owner who resisted a PPI. I felt comfortable doing an inspection.

I hear you. I keep hearing how easy easy easy they are to work on (lack of rust also helps a ton),
but then I keep thinking engine drop is not exactly entry level stuff.
In fact, on a 911, there really is no engine bay.
I'm not even sure how you work on these engines.
So, it seems like you might need a lift to work on these cars?
Does the engine need to be removed for every little thing?

I should start a thread asking people to list the various repairs they've been able to do at home (vs. take to a shop)
It's not really clear what repairs people around here do.
Also, everyone talks about top end rebuilds, full engine rebuilds, tranny rebuilds, etc.
This is hardly beginner stuff. People underestimate just how much experience they've got invested.
One man's "easy" is another man's "Not even a remote possibility with the tools and book I got"

Thinking another way, if 911's are so easy to work on, why are there specialty P-mechanics?
Why not just take it to the local Cleetus? (If they are so basic and simple)
I get the feeling they are not as easy to work as as everyone online says.

Have you ever owned a VW bug? If so, you have the same basic idea.

These cars aren't a PITA like a Ferrari. There's no belts, no engine out tune ups, no 5 valve per cylinder head to fall apart.

They must be pretty easy to work on, because I work on them.

There are plenty of jobs that I consider out of my league. Example, I needed a top-end on an engine done. I pulled it, removed the intake, fan, etc., and drug it up to John Walker who did the top-end (head studs to be precise, mostly clean/inspect the remaining parts). Why did I take it to a Porsche mechanic instead of Cletus? Because Cletus charges $80 and does not know what is "good enough", or "soon to fail" or "fixed as a preventative measure" on a 911. That's what makes a Porsche mechanic worth $100 as I'm paying for the expertise to know the difference. When I got the engine back from John Walker, I had cleaned/detailed everything, I reassembled, threw a new clutch in, and reinstalled it. Actually, I need help putting them back in. We reinstall with a motorcycle jack and whereas Steve is strong enough for that last little finesse-wrestling, I'm not. With two of us, it's a piece of cake to reinstall.

Seems like you are looking for a 3.2 car. The a/c compressor is big and hides a lot of the passenger side engine. The driver's side REALLY opens up when you pull off the blower motor and assembly - which is easy. Plugs, wires, oil changes, fuel filter, etc., - all pretty easy with the engine in the car. These are durable and high quality motor vehicles. If maintenance items (e.g. tune-up, old fuel lines, etc) are addressed, they run very reliably. Not something you have to tinker-fart-around with all the time. In fact, for a 30 or 40 year old car, they are simply BRILLIANTLY reliable. I used mine for business and drove it all over the west coast a few years ago. Aside from a flaky voltage regulator - it never once gave me trouble and has NEVER let me down. Even the voltage regulator got me home.

I realize this was long winded, sorry about that. The right car and the right SELLER will come along. Be patient and then enjoy the ride.

angela

HA!

No AC, no blower motor and backdated HEAT! All you need is rain-x for the inside of the windshield. It's all good.

yep...miss that aspect of the 911.

here's what a $10K regular service gets you in the Ferrari world....

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1381893823.jpg

the simple solution: don't get a 911.

get a bullitt mustang.

Bahahah!!!!! You nailed it mike! ;)

Well setup 944?:p

...has to be well-setup. gotta make sure the timing belt, waterpump and clutch are done :)

That EXACTLY right there is one of the main reasons I won't buy one. I love the F355, the lines, but the heads (valve guide probs) and the costs of the engine out scare the crap out of me.

Too rich for my blood, way too rich.

rjp

if you're ever in LA, you can drive mine whenever you want.

(ive the sintered steel valve job done, replaced the headers (at 26K miles))

hill engineering throwout bearing upgrade. tons of work done.


that $10K was rebuilt waterpump, rebuilt alternator, timing belts and tensioners, cam seals, fuel filters, and....that's about it. Normal 30K service stuff. oh yeah, they repainted the valve covers with hi temp crinkle paint. HA.

yeeah! Thanks!

You might not get it back tho!;)

If you had a lift, do you think it would be that hard to work on? I know F-car parts will always be expensive (I owned a Maserati coupe), but the engine out requirement always seemed like the biggest issue for a DIYer. At least until you get new enough that everything has an ECU and you have to deal with F1 clutch replacements.

This.

The days of a seller sitting around while you arrange a PPI are over. At least for the average 911 that is reasonably priced.

I recently sold my '86. Only place I posted it was here on the classifieds. Had 6 serious offers. Sold within 2 hours. Now I will say I was right at the bottom edge of market value and I had receipts from day 1 and had lots of pictures.

I had one serious buyer that wanted me to get a PPI done on the car, but why should I when I had too many other willing buyers?

Maybe let us know what you're looking for and somebody will know of a car and it can be vetted and PPI'd. Maybe you'll have to fly somewhere to pick it up or have it trucked.

The car I bought was on eBay and didn't meet reserve, so I had time to deal with the seller. The history and story behind the car was very strong, so I had it PPI'd and checked out by a body shop. I used the shop it had been going to, which had a risk/reward aspect to it. Had the car trucked from Colorado to SF. The car is stellar, but still had to do some repairs to make it A1 and reliable. Luckily, the market is rising on the Carreras, but I think you usually wind up above market by the time you make a car perfect.

I think it's wiser to pay top-dollar for a top quality car. These things can eat you alive if you roll the dice and lose.

Matt, without a doubt I could have done the work myself. This car is exceptionally EASY to work on. it's crude, and engineered very simply. There are 6 bolts that hold that entire rear subframe on.

Taking the rear bumper off takes about 20 minutes. Ive done lots of little things on this car, and frankly...it's a joy to work on.

Here in LA, I don't have my shop like back home. Also...I wasn't sure if I was going to keep the car when I bought it. I picked it up for a song. Thinking of wanting to sell it, the Ferrari guys are insane about records. Not only that the major service was done...but WHO did it. It's that big of a deal to them.

I paid a premium to have the service done. They photodocument everything, create a CD disc with hundreds of pictures. Write a report on everything that's done, etc. ...So when I would be ready to sell, I had confirmation that the compression, leakdown, work completed, etc were all perfect.



That being said...now that I will keep the car, I will certainly do my own major service next time it's due (about 5 years from now). That parts will run about 2K. It kills resale value, but if you don't plan to sell the car, who cares.

OH...edit...mine's gated. If it had the F1 tranny, it would be a lot tougher. They require programming that can only be done at a service center with an $$$$ computer system.

You have a real problem separating the wheat from the chaff in the NYC region - lots of older cars bought for prestige and not by enthusiasts. So I'd avoid eBay like the plague, and stick to PCA or Pelican/Rennlist classifieds. Yes, you'll pay a bit more, but probably save a lot more in the long run.

My first 911 ('87 Carrera) I was determined to get a PPI. The owner had every receipt and reading them for 10 minutes it was clear he spared no expense to take care of the car. Every box in the garage had a dymo label on it. I asked about scheduling a PPI, he said, "There are 10 people trying to come tomorrow starting at 8AM." I bought it right then and there in the dark. Perfect car.

My next was the 993 track beast. I knew it was a salvage title car, so a PPI was essential. Took it to a local shop to confirm body straight, engine solid. Done. Nothing else mattered since I was rebuilding suspension and gutting the interior.

You need just a quick PPI to look at headstuds, leakdown, even just change the oil for the guy, just to eliminate an immediate, obvious problem. Then after that it's just mechanical odds which sometimes work in your favor and sometimes don't.

You don't buy a car as buy as you buy the seller. As a much younger guy, I went to by a used Saab 900 from a private party. As we were doing the deal, all my alarms went off. He was shifty, just didn't feel right - but being young, impatient, just "having to buy that car" I ignored common sense and bought it. Mistake - that I've never made again.

Good post except I disagree with this. You are just fortunate to have bought during a rising tide.

You could just as easily poured $25k in your car to "make it perfect" and be looking at a $15k total value. (Ask any 60's muscle car restorer)
In fact, I think the best way to lose a TON of money is to make a classic car "perfect".
I view a hobby car as an expensive hobby. If you're lucky enough to break even, it's just that: Luck. B/c the market rose while you owned. Like a house.
Know anyone who plowed $100k into their $300k house, only to see the value drop to $200k? Every penny of their renovation budget was flushed down the toilet.

Don, interesting point about NYC cars.

I'm in no hurry and appreciate the wisdom here. I know the ideal mature PCA seller when I see one, and already have come across one. When the time is right, I will pull the trigger.

Winter approaching gives me a few months to take my time. Unless I find something exceptional, there's no point in buying something only to immediately put it into storage for 5 months.

Enjoying the process, and learning about the cars.

What a shame...looking for the perfect 911 to store in your garage 1/2 the year?

Or you could drive a reliable Camry year round....

Final thought; just because a car passes a PPI doesn't mean issues will not arise. It's not a guarantee, it's a point in time inspection. Heck, you could float the valve train on a missed shift during the drive home. Receipts tell the story. As do oil spots on the floor, smoking exhaust, etc....

I get the impression you didn't really read my post.
- you have no idea what I paid for the car or what I spent on it. I was at the top of the market, but these things have been rising for years and anyone can see the value in them. The only thing I had to do was the alternator. I did the battery, fuel pump, and relay to be pro-active and have a more reliable car. I replaced the clutch because it would sometimes chatter a bit and it turns out it was pretty worn out at 53K miles. I don't think I'm going to lose a TON of money.
- I didn't buy my car as an investment, but I think it'll cost less to own than a normal $30K car. I don't think it'll drop to half of what I have in it.
- I think there's more than luck involved when you evaluate the market and make a purchase that makes sense. I think there's lots of 911s going for overheated money right now and lots of them that represent solid value.
- if one is buying and renovating a house and doesn't overdo it, there's nothing wrong with that unless one needs to sell it right away. Even then, if one buys another house at the same time they sell one, they should be getting a great bargain like they just gave away. "All ships rise and fall with the tide" to a large extent. If you stay in the house, it will eventually recover. Like the stock market. Living in a house long-term doesn't have much to do with a period of having a paper loss.

I've read that before regarding most F-car guys being shop snobs. I suspect that considering how many open checkbook owners are out there, DIY info probably isn't nearly as readily available as in the Porsche community. That's one of the best things about owning a Porsche, just about any issue can be solved by a simple forum post.

The F1 gearbox ruined my Maserati, you chose well. Clunky around town, short clutch life, and the clutch replacement required the proprietary computer for calibrations. No thanks.