Crescent shotgun problem...
 

Got a significant problem w a Crescent 410 double barrel. I have a link to old thread from here regarding the same topic that received a lot of input from Targa911S. Hoping he might chime in here if still active on this site.

Anyone have any input / suggestions?

Rand A.

go straight to targa..he's the man..the rest of us are gawkers. (except Mericet)

We have 1 guy who joined a Porsche BBS to ask about perfume, and now one to ask about shotguns?

what's up with your little gun?

To make a long story short, after not having been fired for about 50 years, I took the gun to my local trap range just to put a couple of shots thru it...to make sure it was still functional. I fired one shot, which was " high brass" no 8 shot. After that I could not break the gun open to remove the empty. I was trying to consider possible causes, such as....

1. Bad head spacing (there is a little) causing the brass to expand and cause a problem

2. Firing pin not retracted and causing interference

3. Problem with the mechanism that breaks the gun open....this always worked before when working with the gun on the bench.

Just looking for thoughts from someone else that (really) knows these guns.

Thx in advance for any comments.

Randy A.

you went straight to high brass?

Crescents are notorious for having the shakes when it comes to being off face. DO NOT shoot 3" shells in that gun at all. WAY too much pressure for the barrels, the wood, and the action itself. These were inexpensive "hardware store" guns. Crescent made guns under 200 names and were marketed by H.D. Folsom Co. The .410 or The Quail model is rare though as are most .410's. Most Quails have been shot a lot and that is why it's off face. Sometimes you can tighten them up by peening the hook/lump between the barrels. The rest of your problems probably stem from 90 years of crap, old grease and such, inside the action. A complete disassembly and a good ultrasonic cleaning should get it right again. If you choose to do it (cleaning) yourself PM me and I'll talk you through it.

Thx for the reply targa. Just as a matter of information, this gun has never had 3 inch shells shot in it since probably the mid 1950's. Can't comment on it before that as it was my grandfather's gun and the one I first hunted with at the age of 9. Do you feel it's even safe to shoot modern 2-1/2 inch shells given the assumption that everything else is in proper working order, or should I just make this a "wall hanger"? I was thinking of restoring this gun as a "keepsake" , but not sure about that if modern ammo is a problem. I guess I was assuming that there wouldn't be that much difference between early 60's ammo vs what's available now. My mistake I guess.

As far as the off face due to use goes, I'm betting that occurred before my grandfather got it, as he was not much of a gun / hunter person.

Thx again for your comments.

As long as the barrels aren't dented, bulged or badly pitted inside, it should be safe to shoot with modern ammunition. Just as an example and for your information, 12 ga ammunition from when your gun was made was 7,000 + PSI. Modern 12 ga ammo is 20,000 + PSI. Big difference. If you are going to restore it, do it properly. Don't be getting out the power sander. I can give you a lot of tips if that is your goal. I can also do it for you. I work as a smith at a federally licensed shop and I specialized in old doubles. I'm not trying to generate biz for myself but before you go too far and ruin it's good to talk to one who knows. PM me some pics of this little gem. How is the wood? Crescents are usually pretty busted up inside by the time they get this old. Here are some links to a Quail I did for a fellow pelican:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/641241-410-finally-finished.html
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/636635-410-update.html
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/640195-little-410-ready-assemble.html

Wow...thx for all the attachments. I assume that these had to do with the 410 w the dented barrel? My gun has almost no pitting on the outside of the barrel and none in the bore or chambers that I can see.....no dents either. The stock is not cracked on the outside that I can see...not sure of the inside condition. I think my father may have had someone attempt to address the off face issue by peening the radius of the hook that interfaces w the receiver. The checkering is not there on the pistol grip, and I hate to admit it but I may have been the culprit some 50+ years ago when a 13 yr old certainly looked at fixing up old guns entirely differently than now....my tastes have improved. There was a piece missing from the heel (?) of the stock which I put a patch on back then and could probably be dealt with now as is...I seemed to have lucked out there. The little grip plate and the butt plate were a mess, and after searching all over for good Crescent 410 replacements, I finally gave up and we made some at work using a 3-D printer. There are not exact, but I think they look pretty good. I fitted the butt plate exactly to the stock contour, so I'm fairly happy with that. I'll have to see what I can do about pictures, as I don't have any good ones at the moment.

Your work in the attachments is impressive to say the least! Thx again for the reply.

Forgot I had some photos on my cell phone....not the best but here they are.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1397697155.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1397697181.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1397697199.jpg

Seemed to have messed up w one of the pics .... here's the 3D buttplatehttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1397698565.jpg

nice! Get rid of the phillips screws though. Not period correct. The phillips screw comes in after 1933 but on guns it never really gets established. Get some slotted head screws. If you like I will send you some. Index them so they (the slots) all point down the axis of the gun. Use Truoil for your finish. Put it on by rubbing it in with your fingers. It's looking good. I can teach you how to properly blue the barrels and small parts. Do not hot salt blue them. The salts will eat the flux in the solder that holds the two barrels together. You will end up with two single barrels. Cold blueing is really just cosmetic and offers little protection. They must be slow rust blued, and yeah if you can boil water you can do it. That looks like a really nice little gun, better than most I have seen. Nice job on the buttplate and grip cap.

Thx for the info and nice comments. I've had some experience with the tru-oil doing 2 rifle stocks and my Win Model 50. Slowly getting better at putting that on....figured out the finger application was better doing the Model 50. I must confess I was sort of panicked and right now the gun is at a gunsmith attached to a shooting range nearby. He seemed to know what the deal was as far as getting the gun to "open", but now I'm thinking maybe I could tackle that myself. Maybe I'll go retrieve it tomorrow and then make up my mind. I have a reproduction of the Crescent literature for this gun showing the parts and their numbers and have also looked at a couple of videos on you tube.....not for a Crescent but very very similar. Maybe I can work up enough guts to do it. BTW....the butt plate screws are not really butt plate screws...they're smaller and don't have much of a shank on them. I had to do some screw hole "repair".....never gave much thought I guess to the phillips vs slotted issue.......I was just so happy how the 3D butt plate and grip turned out.

That Crescent .410 looks to be in great condition! As you saw with mine that David brought back to life, it was in much more dire straits. David did the impossible with mine...took a gun that was essentially a basket case, and restored it to "better than new" beauty, all while preserving everything about the gun that I cherished from my childhood.

Cool to see another one of these surface on Pelican. Keep us posted on what you decide to do with it. It goes without saying, if you want the master to lay hands on it...you have already located him.

JA

Well thank you for those comps John. Your letter to me is a cherished possession of mine. Trophy if he doesn't know doubles....get it back. I will help you get it done.

He seemed to know all about the Crescent "history" and indicated he already had a couple in the shop to work on......a 12 and a 16 gauge. On the other hand, I sort of feel like I'm bailing out if I don't tackle getting the gun apart myself. The gun obviously needs to be cleaned somewhere along the line and I didn't ask for that....just wanted to get it open again and then go from there depending on what (if anything) might have caused the problem. Decisions , decisions.

Thx for the encouragement.

where are you located?

I'm north of Chicago, just south of the Wisconsin border.

Just as a sidebar to this gun, I actually got a snow goose with it when I was 9 years old. Just goes to show that if you get enough pellets into something you can get the job done. My dad and grandfather didn't believe it initially as they were out in the field w the corn picker, but there was no one else around so they had to believe I actually did it. This memory is one of a few that makes me interested in fixing up this somewhat unique relic.

And THAT story is why I love doing what I do. If these old guns could talk the stories they could tell of crisp fall mornings with friends and fathers.

Decided to try my hand at resolving my "stuck shut" problem so went back to the gunsmith last Thur to retrieve the Crescent 410. Per my usual luck, he already had it apart so I decided to let him go ahead and finish cleaning the guts of the gun. There were a couple of things that were noted both that day and today when we discussed the gun. There appears to be a piece of the stock missing (internally)...but nothing was found laying around inside so maybe it was removed at some earlier time that I'm not aware of. The safety linkage was interfering with the breach release slightly and not allowing it full travel. The spent shell that was in the gun was not really stuck in the chamber, but the primer had backed out of the shell base by about 0.020 inches as near as I can determine. The gun was able to be "released" fairly easily as the gun was disassembled and the firing pins are quite free and easily moved. So.....it's not exactly clear why the gun couldn't be broken open. When the spent shell is in the chamber, the primer is basically flush with the back of the barrel so it doesn't seem like it would cause an interference problem. The gun has definitely had the barrel to receiver joint peened to tighten it up, and when the breech is closed, it's pretty tight. I scrounged up a couple of low brass shells that I forgot I had and am thinking about repeating my experiment that caused the problem initially.

how deep are the impressions on the primers of the stuck shells? Maybe the firing pin was just stuck in it's own dent in the primer. I have had that happen before. The safety issue/top lever travel sounds plausible. What is missing? The center web? Pics?

There was only one shell stuck. The impression was fairly deep, but I could only feel an "edge" on depression in one small section. The impression was fairly large in diameter also. Still not exactly dialed in on why the primer backed out of the shell base, since the action doesn't seem that loose to me. Figured I didn't have much to lose except another $50, so took the gun back to the range and the pattern board to see what would happen. Results were.....

shot 1....low base 9 in the right barrel. Gun initially didn't want to open but did without too much hassle. The shell primer didn't back out and the impression was much less.....this was the barrel that I shot before and then had the lock up

shot 2....low base 9 in the left barrel. Gun opened fine. Impression was deeper and bigger dia than shot 1. Probably close to the first shot where the gun locked up

shot 3.....high base 8 back in the right barrel. Gun opened fine. Impression was a little deeper / bigger dia than shot 1. Shell primer backed out very slightly.

I'm not sure if this means anything or not.

The piece of the stock missing was from the center web I think. I would have to take the gun apart to get a picture of that. I can do that, but what's the best procedure? Can I just remove one of the side plates......what do I have to look out for? Does the gun need to be "cocked" first before doing that?

Thx for your feedback BTW.....very much appreciated.

given your excellent testing, I think the cleaning got it back on track. Shoot it some more I think it will be good for it. If it is working good, there is no need to repair the center support inside. To repair that requires complete take down. The repair is, no offense, probably beyond your skill and materials level. Side lock guns are very difficult to fit after repair. If it is shooting and acting well, leave well enough alone and finish the cosmetics. If you really want to remove the lock plates, remove the two short screws on either side, then unscrew the one screw on the side and tap it against the opposite sidelock to pop it out. Yes you need to cock the gun first or you will have to manually cock each lock before you can put it back in.

Targa - I apologize for being away from this for a while....sometimes life gets in the way of entertainment. I've got a couple of questions about doing the "cosmetics" on this Crescent 410. First, have you or anyone for that matter ever seen one that only had the forearm checkered and not the stock pistol grip? As I mentioned earlier, I don't actually remember, but I may have been the culprit that removed the grip checkering if it ever existed in the first place. If I was to redo this gun I wonder if it would really be worth looking into having it put back on ($$$$).

I think I would start by doing the stock first...not removing it from the receiver. There's a gouge (small) near the edge of the pistol grip that I would like to at least fill in.....not sure the best way to tackle that. If someone could advise me or point me in the right direction that would be much appreciated.

I have been avoiding staining any of the gun stocks I've done in the last few months except one as I feel if you "guess wrong" then you are basically screwed.

I have never seen a gun from the factory that was not checkered in both places if it is checkered at all. you will have to finish the stock before you have it checkered. You may be able to steam the gouge out with an iron and a wet cloth if it is not too deep. I do not normally use stain. Checkering is expensive.

I've had similar problems with some of my older SxS's ... Primer type is typically the issue, try using a different brand (Remington) and see if that helps. Also, stay away from shells > 1200 fps. I hope this helps.

Regards, Dave D.

all these things^^^^^^^^

I'm torn about refinishing the stock. I am aware that 410s are worth a little money nowadays but with the stock checkering issue plus the non-original butt and grip plates I question what this gun might be worth.......but, I'm not really looking at this as an investment. I'm tempted to just redo the stock as is and forget about it. As far as rust bluing is concerned, if I were to go that far I would want to do the whole gun....so it would have to be completely disassembled for that correct? Also, I didn't quite get your comment (targa) about having to checker the stock after it was done. Did you mean completely refinished..then go in a checker the stock.....or just sand and correct the imperfections but without putting on the final finish. As usual any input / comments appreciated.

Randy A.

You understood targa911s correctly. Sand and get rid of all the dings and dent, refinish and then checker. Hope you have patience for the checkering part.

All you have to do is remove the barrels to rust blue them. The barrels are all you will be bluing. Now you have Neil involved. He's a real gunsmith with the degree to prove it. Checkering really sucks. So tedious.

There always exceptions...........
 

Some of the Colt Lightning pump rifles came with checkered forearms but non checkered stocks. Of course, the newest of these is 110 years old now!

I have only had my hands on one lightning in my life.

Shotgun perfume?

I thought of it first!!!!

That would be Hoppes #9..

What ever happened to hoppes 1-8?


Sent via Jedi mind trick.

The chances of me re-checkering the stock on this gun are pretty much slim and none as I don't feel I have the skill to do it. I might be inclined to let this gun be someone else's project...have to give that some thought.

BTW...my son-in-law has a "porch" convertible...is that close enough?!