"They look like normal people"

[pwd72s]

Very chilling look at a photo album...could happen today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUvcmGbtHWA&ab_channel=JourneymanPictures

[masraum]

It's unfathomable how real people could have lived on that side of things. But I think we all know that man has an amazing ability to harm fellow man. And seemingly normal people can be convinced to do horrible things. I don't know how it happens, but it clearly does, because that's not the only time in history that it has happened, that's just the most well known. But many, many times over the years, horrible atrocities have been meted out one one group by another, and while yes, there are some folks that almost everyone can see and recognize as evil, I think in a lot of these group on group incidents a lot of the folks are relatively normal folks. Maybe it's an extreme version of bending to peer pressure.

But it's very hard (essentially impossible) to imagine.

And we won't even talk about the deniers.

[stomachmonkey]

Originally Posted by masraum

....And seemingly normal people can be convinced to do horrible things......Maybe it's an extreme version of bending to peer pressure...

Those things are only possible with people who do the convincing and exert the pressure.

In other words, there is a large contingent of people out there who need no convincing or pressure.

Evil is their natural state.

They are out there today, right now, and they aren't even quiet about it.

That's probably the most disturbing part, that they feel confident enough that there are like minded people where they don't feel they need to hide it because they will be accepted.

[McLovin]

I’m a hobbiest historían and WWII buff.
It used to be unfathomable to me how so many people could be made to willingly do so many horrible things. It was completely beyond my understanding.
I have a much greater understanding of it now, in fact it’s no longer very surprising to me at all.

[Por_sha911]

Thank you to pwd72s for bringing this to light.

My great grandparents were murdered in Auschwitz. My mom, aunt and grandparents rode in a cattle car headed to a concentration camp but the train stopped in the middle of nowhere, sat for a long while, and then reversed direction. It is believed that the camp was not prepared for them so they returned them to their home town. My grandfather immediately made arrangements (through large sums of money) to get out of Germany. I have a recording of my mom giving this testimony.

There are so many things I'd want to say about this video but there is no way to do so in a civil or rational manner.

To anyone who has a hard time understanding this time in history I suggest you watch the unedited version of Schindler's List (not the one cleaned up for television). It is just a miniscule opening into the true view of all that went on.

[911SauCy]

I am apprehensive to toss in my $.02 here as this clearly hits extremely close to home for some and that is something I could never genuinely fathom.

I also take extreme interest in the film remark of "these are seemingly normal people". Unfortunately, that is exactly what and whom they were... Normal people, sheep, an entire society that was brainwashed in a very calculated way by a few absolutely atrocious people, to believe that what they were doing was for a greater good (God, it's disgusting to even consider that)....

One would assume there are other films of the sort out there, they should be shared to as many people as possible.

This brainwashing begins on the smallest scale and systematically grows like a cancer, until entire societies fall into their herd and blindly follow their master.

This is currently occurring, today, as we reflect on this horrible period of history. If people aren't seeing this and don't want to take action for theirs and the overall health of the population... History will repeat itself.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by 911SauCy

I am apprehensive to toss in my $.02 here as this clearly hits extremely close to home for some and that is something I could never genuinely fathom.

I also take extreme interest in the film remark of "these are seemingly normal people". Unfortunately, that is exactly what and whom they were... Normal people, sheep, an entire society that was brainwashed in a very calculated way by a few absolutely atrocious people, to believe that what they were doing was for a greater good (God, it's disgusting to even consider that)....

One would assume there are other films of the sort out there, they should be shared to as many people as possible.

This brainwashing begins on the smallest scale and systematically grows like a cancer, until entire societies fall into their herd and blindly follow their master.

This is currently occurring, today, as we reflect on this horrible period of history. If people aren't seeing this and don't want to take action for theirs and the overall health of the population... History will repeat itself.

Agreed. I am sure that there were evil people in the machine. I also think that there were normal folks that through whatever means/mechanism were convinced that what they were seeing/doing/a part of was absolutely fine. I'm not sure how that happens (I don't understand how a person, or certainly not myself could end up in that position).

I've often thought that a lot of folks are susceptible to what I'm going to again call "peer pressure." In some cases, I think it's mild, basically just "going along with the crowd", and I think it's likely, the more folks in the crowd that are doing it, the easier it is to do (mob mentality). Then there are cases where one dominant person manipulates other folks through more extreme measures. (think one person convincing another person to take part in a murder or at the extreme end, something like Charles Manson and his "family").

I also think that there are folks that due to their personality are probably much, much less likely to go along with the crowd. I feel like "going along with the crowd" is an intrinsic characteristic of most of the human race. It is not an excuse, for those folks. I've just put some (not tons) of though around how/why some folks do what they do. I'm also not saying that folks that are not likely to bend to peer pressure are in any way superior.

It's certainly thought provoking, and for me, pretty much impossible to understand.

[Otter74]

Thank you for sharing something that hits so close to home for you.

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

Thank you to pwd72s for bringing this to light.

My great grandparents were murdered in Auschwitz. My mom, aunt and grandparents rode in a cattle car headed to a concentration camp but the train stopped in the middle of nowhere, sat for a long while, and then reversed direction. It is believed that the camp was not prepared for them so they returned them to their home town. My grandfather immediately made arrangements (through large sums of money) to get out of Germany. I have a recording of my mom giving this testimony.

There are so many things I'd want to say about this video but there is no way to do so in a civil or rational manner.

To anyone who has a hard time understanding this time in history I suggest you watch the unedited version of Schindler's List (not the one cleaned up for television). It is just a miniscule opening into the true view of all that went on.

[ckissick]

FWIW, I had a very interesting experience that gave me a little bit of insight into the thought process of such seemingly evil people. I was asked by the director of a stage production of Diary of Anne Frank to the play the Nazi officer who arrests them in the annex. My German heritage, blonde hair, and blue eyes fit the role.

I was supposed to be as horrible and evil as possible. The director told me I must be "evil incarnate". In my 1-minute scene I put a gun to Otto Frank's head, shoved Anne down some stairs, and generally terrorized everyone in the annex. All while screaming anti-Jewish epithets in German as loud as I could. The others actors had to act terrified so they wanted me to be as evil as possible to make their job easier. But it wasn't easy for me. It was a nigthmare. By the end of the first weekend, I couldn't even speak after the show. I just went backstage and broke down.

Over the next few days I was a wreck, suffering from extreme anxiety. I never had anxiety in my life before that. My wife helped me regain my sanity and by Thursday I finally thought I could maybe do it again the next night. I was able to do it, and again on Saturday and Sunday.

So, yes, being evil for someone who otherwise seems normal is very hard. But here's the thing. The show ran for 5 weekends and I felt better as each weekend came and went. By the final weekend, I was actually having fun. After the scene I would go backstage acting like I just made a buzzer beater to win a game because I just did a great job of scaring the crap out of everyone in the theater.

What I learned was that you can be trained to be evil. Mind you, I wasn't shoving people into gas chambers; that's a much higher level of evil. I just arrested them and led them out of the annex at gun point. I didn't see them get on trains or any of the other atrocities that Otto described in the final scene. I could never do such things in real life, but when you're on stage in costume, etc., it can certainly feel like real life.

When I look at those pictures I at least have a vague idea of how they could do it. Actually, no, despite my experience, I still can't understand how they could gas women and children. I can only understand those who were on the sidelines not witnessing the worst of it.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by ckissick

FWIW, I had a very interesting experience that gave me a little bit of insight into the thought process of such seemingly evil people. I was asked by the director of a stage production of Diary of Anne Frank to the play the Nazi officer who arrests them in the annex. My German heritage, blonde hair, and blue eyes fit the role. ....

Very interesting. Thank you for sharing.

It's similar to something that I noticed in the topless bar business. A lot of young attractive waitresses show up and say "I would never strip!" But, they are in the environment potentially 40 hours a week where tons of other girls are running around in next to nothing. There's alcohol and drugs. After a while, the nudity seems pretty normal. It often only takes one guy at the right time that has seen all of the dancers and wants the forbidden fruit. He'll come in, buy drinks for the waitress, offer her 10x or 20x the usual amount of money, and she ends up dancing. A lot of the management in the bars called waitresses "dancers in training." Being in the environment long term frequently meant that someone that held out a long time would eventually get naked. Sometimes they'd transition completely. Sometimes they would never do it again. Sometimes they would quit. But it was very common.

I suspect for a lot of folks, even the most evil stuff is like we've all heard about putting a frog in a pot of water and slowly raising the temp....

Despite all of that, I still can't REALLY understand, and feel like there's no way that I could have been in that position.

[id10t]

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

Thank you to pwd72s for bringing this to light.

My great grandparents were murdered in Auschwitz. My mom, aunt and grandparents rode in a cattle car headed to a concentration camp but the train stopped in the middle of nowhere, sat for a long while, and then reversed direction. It is believed that the camp was not prepared for them so they returned them to their home town. My grandfather immediately made arrangements (through large sums of money) to get out of Germany. I have a recording of my mom giving this testimony.

There are so many things I'd want to say about this video but there is no way to do so in a civil or rational manner.

To anyone who has a hard time understanding this time in history I suggest you watch the unedited version of Schindler's List (not the one cleaned up for television). It is just a miniscule opening into the true view of all that went on.

Never ****in again.



And may their memories continue to be a blessing

[Tobra]

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

My great grandparents were murdered in Auschwitz. My mom, aunt and grandparents rode in a cattle car headed to a concentration camp but the train stopped in the middle of nowhere, sat for a long while, and then reversed direction. It is believed that the camp was not prepared for them so they returned them to their home town. My grandfather immediately made arrangements (through large sums of money) to get out of Germany. I have a recording of my mom giving this testimony.

There are so many things I'd want to say about this video but there is no way to do so in a civil or rational manner.

Perhaps you have a link to this recording you could share.


I am certain I am not the only one interested

Originally Posted by McLovin

I’m a hobbiest historían and WWII buff.
It used to be unfathomable to me how so many people could be made to willingly do so many horrible things. It was completely beyond my understanding.
I have a much greater understanding of it now, in fact it’s no longer very surprising to me at all.

I am right there with you.

Some of the stuff that has happened in the last few years, I would have never believed possible. Particularly in Australia and Canada, seriously, WTF

[McLovin]

It’s frightening.
Like shown in WWII and literally countless times in history, the social fabric and protection of individual rights is very thin, and freedom and democracy is not the default human condition.
Our generation in the US has grown up in an extremely historically rare time and place where it’s taken for granted.

[Por_sha911]

I have seen the phrase "peer pressure" used here.
IMO, peer pressure is a tide pod challenge, a truth or dare game, or even some things a little more repugnant like pressuring a girl to get drunk and do things that she wouldn't do with a right mind.
Watch millions of innocent men, women, children treated with inhumane brutality and then put to death cannot be whitewashed with peer pressure. Those who committed these atrocities had to willfully refuse to have any shred of human decency or compassion.

[Por_sha911]

Originally Posted by Tobra

Perhaps you have a link to this recording you could share.
I am certain I am not the only one interested

It is a private testimony of my mom for the family to listen to, done with a cassette recorder and she never give permission to broadcast it publicly. I do understand and thank you for your interest but don't feel it is appropriate to share.

[Por_sha911]

[flatbutt]

Damn Joe. Hug your Mom for me.

[Rawknees'Turbo]

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

I have seen the phrase "peer pressure" used here.
IMO, peer pressure is a tide pod challenge, a truth or dare game, or even some things a little more repugnant like pressuring a girl to get drunk and do things that she wouldn't do with a right mind.
Watch millions of innocent men, women, children treated with inhumane brutality and then put to death cannot be whitewashed with peer pressure. Those who committed these atrocities had to willfully refuse to have any shred of human decency or compassion.

Same thought from me when I see comments such at that (peer pressure), and most other explanations theorized about for such conduct (mass brain washing/manipulation, herd mentality, learned callousness, etc.) - I don't buy it at all.

[masraum]

Originally Posted by Por_sha911

I have seen the phrase "peer pressure" used here.
IMO, peer pressure is a tide pod challenge, a truth or dare game, or even some things a little more repugnant like pressuring a girl to get drunk and do things that she wouldn't do with a right mind.
Watch millions of innocent men, women, children treated with inhumane brutality and then put to death cannot be whitewashed with peer pressure. Those who committed these atrocities had to willfully refuse to have any shred of human decency or compassion.

Agreed that "peer pressure" is not really the right term, and the holocaust was at the extreme end of pretty much anything that the human mind can come up with (at least I hope so). But, it is all about degrees. Going from truth or dare to rape is a pretty big jump. Clearly going from rape to the holocaust is a jump of several orders of magnitude. And the holocaust is probably the most well known, most organized, and with the largest body count in history, but it's also not the only genocide or atrocity visited upon women and children. Many, many folks through the years have done horrible things to other folks including women and children (Nanking). Probably one of the best comparisons might be Charles Manson and what he convinced/manipulated ordinary kids to do. My point is that so many people through time have been silent/complicit witness to atrocities over time, that there's got to be something psychological that I don't understand that allows what I suspect are some ordinary folks to be a part of these things. I don't believe that every nazi was necessarily a psychopath. I feel like that's something that we should be trying to understand better.

I'm certainly not trying to white wash or make light of anything that was done. I don't think the people that did it should get a pass for any reason. I would like a better understanding of how this stuff happens. I just don't think most Germans were sitting around wondering what horrible things they could do.

I am afraid that the same kind of thing could happen any where, any time under the wrong/"right" circumstances.

[pwd72s]

I'd like to think that most of the German militay and civilian population didn't have a clue what was going on. But I'm probably kidding myself?