Towing a 911, four down
 

Need some input from the brain trust here.

I'm getting close now to having all the gear to hookup the SC to the back of my motorhome to do some cruising this summer.
All the searches here have turned up conflicting info about whether the 911 can be pulled distances on its own wheels without damage to the trans.

Most suggestions are, get a trailer to tow it on. But my Moho is somewhat a vintage unit also and. Has limited tow capacity. So adding the weight of a trailer is a stretch. Not to mention the extra cost and storage for the trailer.

So towing on it own wheels is the best fit in my case.

There are pics to be found archived here of 911s being towed. But also comments about the trans not being properly lubricated if towed long distances.

So my question is, can a. 1980 911 be towed distances on it own wheels with out damage.
My car is a driver that I enjoy using, so I'm willing to add the miles while towing to have it to explore with once in new areas. Possible first destination is Colo. so lots of mountain roads to explore there.

Thanks. Richard

The unit in question
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1423844128.jpg

tow dolly backwards so you are not spinning the trans
tie down the steering

You need something like that; tow dolly backwards + the other contraption under the front wheel.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1423849814.jpg

I'm always curious as to why it is so hard on a MANUAL transmission to be towed versus being driven.... I mean, a 911 transmission held up for 24 hour racing, off-road rally's, decades of spirited driving but what - it turns to ash if you tow the car? Really? Automatic - usually not a good thing, but a manual is another story. I think every Suzuki Samurai/Geo Tracker around here with a manual transmission has seen 100,000 miles behind a motorhome. I used to think that they just threw one of these in the package deal when you bought a big motor home.

Most of the posters you find who poo-poo towing a manual transmission 911 are worrying about the front being lifted on the dolly and the rear on the ground. Pretty tight clearance for the exhaust with the nose up and POSSIBLY if towed a tremendous distance, you could have an oiling problem as the transmission is nose up.

This is a better question for the tech section, though some posters are in both areas.

Personally, if I were taking that car a long distance, I would tow it on a small trailer, all four wheels on the trailer, just to keep it very nice. There would be no way on the planet that I would lift the rear end with the truck and put a dolly under the front wheels unless I was using a professional grade tow-truck and accompanying equipment. I would add a better hitch to the motor home and use a tandem axle trailer which will give you a light tongue weight. Should be just fine.

*edit* - heck what am I saying? I would make my husband drive the motor home and I would drive the 911!!! SOLVED!

angela

I was about to reply to Nota, that the dolly would be tough to back onto without hitting the engine on the dolly. Plus the clearance of the lip spoiler would drag on any bump.

Then there is the double dolly. Guess I would have bring a floor jack to get on and off the second dolly. Or have a tow truck follow with the 911 in tow.

Really what I am asking is if the trans will lubricate it's self while towing?

I guess I should take this over to the tech forum. But I hang more here and think there is the knowledge here to solve this question.

Thanks Richard

Yep I am well onto the path to towing the car. All ready got a nice tow bar, have installed receivers onto the car, got a brake buddy to stop the car while towing.
Just need to fab brackets for the front of the bumper to hook the tow bar to.
That's the last piece of the puzzle.

Then I came across an old post here stating that if the trans is in neutral the drive gears are not turning so no oiling will happen to parts of the trans.
That is what has prompted this thread.

So that is the focus here, will the 911 trans be well lubricated if towed for long distances.

Angela, you are right in your last comment about driving in tandem , but I am solo now so want to do it myself.
And the hitch might require some beefing up to tow more weight, and the engine too for that extra 1,500 pounds. It's slow enough all ready climbing mountains .

Sorry if my response to Nota and JJ 911 was a bit tart. I do appreciate the input, it was just a little off target.


Cheers Richard

I like it, except those small dolly wheels might be more susceptible to dog-legging or potholes over long trips.

As long as you were thinking lemons, no problemo :D:):D

It will be interesting to see responses from 911 experts here. There are bearings that are used more when towing in neutral, but in most transmissions the oil is sloshed around enough to keep them lubricated. I don't know if a 911 is different somehow, or if this is another "what kind of oil should I use?" question.

I have a 2 wheeled car dolly that I use quite a bit towing cars or trucks (mine is the wide version). The best way for the tail to wag the dog, so to speak, is to tow something with the heavy end down on the pavement and the lightweight end up on the dolly.

I tried towing a Datsun 280ZXT with the rear end up on the dolly mainly because the non-running car was parked with it's nose up to a building. Needless to say about 5 miles down the road, I pulled into a truckstop and turned the car around on the dolly. For 5 miles it had swayed back and forth, and almost made the tow vehicle wipe out from the swinging and swaying.

A porsche 911 would be better with the heavy rearend up on the dolly, and the front tires on the pavement with the steering locked and in gear.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/222038-do-you-really-need-trailer-tow-911-a.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/334998-towing-911-behind-motorhome.html

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/701901-towing.html

My bigger worry would be all the crap getting swept into the front end and windshield of the 911 being at ground level so close to the wake of the RV

You can flat tow with no issues if you drop the half shafts at the wheel side. You would just have to hook them back up every time you wanted to drive the 911. OK if its a long haul to get the car somewhere and being there for a long time. Say for the winter in FL.

+1
This just seems like a bad idea all the way around, but it's not my car to trash. I always looked land dingies as throw away vehicles, because they're going to get trashed.

This was the comment that has caused me concern since coming across it a couple of weeks ago.
Any ideas how accurate this is?

"For short distances it is probably OK.

Longer distances...?
Seems it would increase wear on the needle bearings that reside between the gears and the main shaft.
The gears on the mainshaft are engaged with the gears on the layshaft all the time. The gearset on the mainshaft are on needle bearings and freewheel all the time unless a gear is selected, then it is locked to the mainshaft.
When the engine is not running and the clutch is out, then obviously the input shaft to the transmission, and layshaft/mainshaft gearsets are stationary.
But if the car is rolling with the CV joints attached and the transmission in nuetral then the differential and outputshaft or mainshaft of the transmission are turning... and the the mainshaft will be spinning inside of the stationary gearset.
The gears being stationary will also not be splashing, swirling gearbox oil around inside the case to keep the needle bearings freshly lubricated.

This may not be much of an issue but for long distances I wouldn't do it.
Just have someone drive the car there or disconnect the CV joints from the transaxle while towing.

If you've ever taken apart a manual transmission then you know what I'm talking about."

I have helped take apart a transmission from. 911. But my roll as helper did not bring me complete understanding of the inner workings of the thing.

I would rather discuss this here and become more informed, than go ahead and start towing and find out the hard way.
I would rather resell all the gear that I've bought to rig for towing than cause big problems.
I'm located in northern AZ. Right now and see countless RVs. Rolling by towing cars all the time. It really makes me realize how much it would add to upcoming trips to be able to safely tow the 911 along.

Cheers Richard

Again, I'm not a 911 expert, but post #15 is true for front engined cars. The gears that he calls the layshaft ("countershaft" in American) are in the bottom of the transmission where the oil is. These gears are locked to the input shaft from the clutch. If the engine isn't turning, these gears aren't turning. Under normal operation the oil is tossed around in the case by these gears. If engine isn't turning this shaft it doesn't toss lube up to the bearings on the mainshaft. There isn't much of a load on them under towing conditions, so they don't need much oil and running them without the lubricant bath for a while won't hurt them. But go far enough for the lube to run out and the bearings run dry and trash your mainshaft.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1423876033.jpg

Found an image of a P-car transmission and it is upside down from a front engine car transmission. The shaft driven by the wheels when towing is in the bottom of the transmission where the oil is.It appears that the 4th speed and 3rd speed gears turn whenever the wheels turn and throw oil around inside the transmission case, so the discussion above doesn't apply.

Thanks WDfifteen for digging up that pic of the trans, if I'm understanding the pic correctly it seems it would do well in oiling itself while towing. Or is that wishful thinking on my part?

Ha ha Shaun, don't know why I didn't think of that, perfect I can enjoy driving the SC and still have the coach to live in while traveling.

Cheers Richard

I think it would lubricate itself just fine.

set the towed car wheels to toe out at the front
when towed backwards they will be toe in and self-steer to follow the towing RV
you also need to tie down the steering wheel to prevent play = wander

I towed around a car (not 911) on an open car trailer behind a vintage motor home and I would not recommend it. Way underpowered, and there are many places we stayed where that trailer was a huge liability. Added stress to the journey, and if I were to do it over flat towing the "dingy" would be my choice.

Some people I met and befriended on my RV journey were a family of 5 who were full timing in an older Winnebago. They flat towed a VW thing all over the country for years, never seemed to have any issues with the trans. VW thing <> 911, but I'd expect they are pretty similar:D

To address any concerns about oil circulation in the trans, couldn't you install something like this:
http://www.patrickmotorsports.com/part/g50-930-915-911-901-transmission-oil-cooler-system-trans-gearbox/
You could wire up the pump so that it could be plugged into a 12v source from the motorhome to circulate the gear oil while flat towing.

I tow my Saturn Vue,, and I have to say ,, ARE YOU NUTS ?? the crap that will be thrown up from the RV will absolutely trash your 911.. DON"T DO IT!!!

I sure do appreciate this discussion and all the links, some I had not found before .
Clearly there are many opinions and generalities at play on the subject.

The threads I had not come across before were some of the ones with real long term successful experience at towing 911s four down. This supports my original conclusions
And helps me move forward with the plan.

There is one more question About my particular setup that that has me wondering if the choices I've made will work out OK.

Because of the very long overhang at the back of the airstream, I was concerned about attaching the tow bar to a point under the car. Thinking that the angle of the tow bar would not allow enough range of travel to accommodate the up and down motion between the two vehicles as they move over the unavoidable uneven terrain encountered.

So I chose to use the receivers that mount behind the bumper, replacing the original bumper struts and meant to be used for tow hooks for track use. Attaching the tow bar at the bumper on the car will allow much freer range of travel for the tow bar.
The supplier of the receiver strut says it's meant for track use only . This seems to me a way to avoid liability from possible road accidents. But is a little worrying.
The use in a track situation typically would involve a single strap hooked to one point, using only one strut to pull the car.
My use will be spreading the load to both struts.
Anyone here familiar with these struts and their mounting to the tub? Thoughts on their suitability for my application.

Thanks again for the helpful input.

Cheers Richard

For about the price of a rebuilt transmission, you could get a used trailex - 840lbs empty. I've pulled a 911 with much less RV than you have, and it's like it's not back there.
Save the wear and tear on your car ...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1423957359.jpg

We'll that oil cooler with circulation pump would certainly do the trick in solving the problem, thanks for that Jwasbury.

9dreizig, I hear you, and that was my original concern too. But after a year of looking at towed vehicles and talking with RVers. I've seen many that had been dragged around for years with very little cosmetic damage visible. I guess it depends on lots of factors, the types of roads traveled, the measures used to minimize the damage, etc.

Did you use the stone gaurd at the back bumper, or the Sheild on the tow bar just in front of the towed car? This combination seem quite effective at keeping damage to a minimum.
Plus as I mentioned earlier my car is a driver. With some stone chips and a very pitted original windschield that I own to enjoy using, just can't imagine going up to Colorado for a couple weeks in the spring and having the SC sitting here in Az. Or up to the Pacific N W this summer and not be able to get into cruising the great roads and sites on offer there.
I'm a DIY owner and really do love my SC and don't intend to trash it. But my plans are to enjoy traveling and exploring this great land focusing on areas that are great to experience from the seat of a fun sports car.

I may come to see it as you do, but really want to enclude the Porsche in my travel adventures.
Thanks for your concern!

Cheers Richard

WOW http://forums.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/clap.gif[img]
Lgb 240. That is a great rig you have there for heading to the track.
Love the low cut wrap around wind screen, and knockoff wire wheels on your MG A

If I had that trailer is sight a year ago I might have gone that way. Most that I came across here were closer to 1,500 lbs and around $5K..
There is still the storage difficulties in parking at parks and at places where I may stay for longer periods.
I don't have a home base yet here on the mainland, and am full timing in my motorhome, so have to keep stuff to a minimum, another consideration

I did an epic winter trip from Fla to Seatle Wa. In an MG A. Back in the day.
Quite the adventure. Can remember driving in a blizzard in Tex. wrapped in a sleeping bag for warmth. Stopping under an overpass in the wee hours. Climbing onto the hood and sleeping till the engine heat was overcome by the sub freezing air temps. Forcing me back on the road.
Not wanting to hijack my own thread, but would love to see more of your A.

Cheers Richard

Ok Tevake, if you're committed to going that way I'd tell you to get some sort of stone shield to protect it.. it will still be way into the slip stream so no worries about wind resistance.. maybe a clear coat bra,, or HEY, I've got a 911 bra I'll GIVE you just pay shipping !!!

Very kind offer Todd!
If I am unable to find a reasonable deal on a shield to put on the tow bar, I'll PM you to take you up on that.

Thanks Richard

^is the "much less rv" you pulled a 911 with the Roadtrek class B in the picture? That Roadtrek probably has as much or more HP than the old Airstream, plus it will weigh a lot less. I have a trailex and they are fantastic, you have a great set up there.

^this...I spent a year living in a vintage RV (Bluebird Wanderlodge), and the car trailer was a real PITA in a bunch of places I stayed.

Here's a stone guard. PVC mesh. Light weight. Price shown is $285 but you could build it for a lot less.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1423976734.jpg

What was I thinking, Todd, I would appreciate the bra that you offered. Why not use another layer of protection while towing.

Check your PM. For my address and contact info. You can let me know what to sent to you.

Thanks for the generous offer.

Cheers Richard

Heard a storey about a camper towing a vw behind dingy fashion but forgot and left it in first gear, after cruising at 60 mph noticed the smoke. Too late!

I have a project 911 stored out back. It's a '69 911T that has had just one owner. He spent his retirement years towing it behind his motorhome with a tow bar....Reports over 20,000 miles are just "tow miles"..........No trans issues at all.......

Lots of people on the internet with "theories", very few with first hand experience....

^^. Glad to hear more confirmation of my thoughts. That the 911 can be towed with out undue consequences . Thanks Bob!

I did post my question here because I recognize there is a lot of experience and diverse backgrounds to draw from. Sure some opinions come along too.
But ultimately the info I was looking for came to light also. Plus many good points to consider.

Just yesterday I went by a metal fab shop to get the brackets made to connect the tow bar to the bumper/receivers.

The last piece of the system is a rock Sheild to mount just in front of the car on the tow bar. The search continues. So far craigslist has come up with descent deal on the other components needed.
This Sheild plus the bra Todd offered should keep the road debris damage to a minimum.
Really stoked to think of heading to Colorado in mid April with the SC in tow . Heading to a classic airstream motorhome gathering near Colorado Springs, should be fun.
And close to Pikes Peak, just one of the drives I'm hoping to do with the SC.

Cheers Richard

Some open snowmobile trailers have a molded fiberglass nose cone that protects the sleds from kicked up snow, salt, stones, slush, maybe you could find such a device and adapt it to a proper aluminum car hauler.

$230 (free delivery) @ Caliber 13401 Poly Shield III Series Snowmobile Trailer HDPE Plastic Salt Guard - 25.5 Inches Tall | MFG# 13401 | CPS-13401 | Hanna Trailer Supply Oak Creek, Wisconsin

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1424262980.jpg

This one does interest me. Been googling to find it with no luck.
Do you have a link or details.

Thanks Richard

Here it is but it's in Australia: http://www.brisbanecampertrailers.com.au/accessories/

Here is a few more: https://www.google.ca/search?q=PVC+Mesh+Trailer+stone+guard&biw=1067&bih =485&tbm=isch&imgil=7DkW_E-zj6g73M%253A%253Bxajy3vYVrlZuNM%253Bhttp%25253A%25 252F%25252Fwww.tsrcst.com%25252Fcp%25252Fhtml%2525 2F%25253F81.html&source=iu&pf=m&fir=7DkW_E-zj6g73M%253A%252Cxajy3vYVrlZuNM%252C_&usg=__-UO_5oAeDCbnpmSdveQRu-vL4_Y%3D&ved=0CDUQyjc&ei=LMrkVI7GL7WTsQTfwoKQDw#im gdii=_&imgrc=7DkW_E-zj6g73M%253A%3Bxajy3vYVrlZuNM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252 Fwww.tsrcst.com%252Fpic%252F201209201348102760875. jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.tsrcst.com%252Fcp%252 Fhtml%252F%253F81.html%3B560%3B440

So what happened? Any success towing your 911?