I read in the Daily Mail today that there is no psych. screening process for hiring pilots for Germanwings.

About two years ago I was sitting in 1B right behind the cockpit door on a Delta flight. I can't remember what plane it was, but it was probably an Airbus A320 or one of their related variants. My routes are lousy with the old Airbuses except for when I get really lucky and they use even smaller regional jets.

It was windy and the rollout was very rough and we were bouncing around badly during the takeoff and even worse on the initial ascent. The cockpit door kept knocking back and forth in its frame like it was loose. Sure enough, maybe a minute into the flight the cockpit door popped open completely and started banging back and forth like a cheap screen door in a hurricane. I could see directly into the cockpit with two extremely busy and not happy pilots working the controls. We were in steep enough of an ascent that the flight attendant couldn't get up to close the door.

The captain looked over his shoulder and saw me looking at him. He shouted in a very command presence voice not to get up. I wasn't sure if he was worried that I would rush the cockpit or if he was worried that I'd get hurt if I tried to close the door in such turbulence. Either way, his tone of voice did not invite questions or suggestions. He looked ready to hand the controls to the co-pilot and come out of his chair at me if I moved. I appreciated his dedication to keeping the plane flying. I just looked back in the isle to make sure no one crazy enough to rush the pilots saw that the door was open. I figured that if someone did get up I'd be the last barrier before the cockpit and I'd better be ready to jump up if necessary.

Fortunately not very many passengers even noticed. The plane leveled off in a minute or two and the flight attendant was finally able to unstrap herself and close the door. I think one of the pilot's concerns was that if someone did try to close the door they my get thrown into the cockpit by turbulence and hit the controls.

The whole incident left me less than confident in the strength of cockpit doors and makes the whole German Airbus tragedy that much harder for me to comprehend.

Suicide airliner accidents and incidents - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Further indication of intent...

Germanwings pilot ordered jet down to 100 feet, trackers say

It may depend on the airplane. I've seen that, and I've seen them bring a service cart out and stand in the aisle with it until the crew member is back in the cockpit. I think it depends on where the can is relative to the cockpit door.

This should be carved in stone. :mad:

There had better be a dead man switch for the steward/stewardess. If the remaining pilot has intentions of crashing, I would think he has no issues incapacitating the second person.

I see no perfect solutions short of making the crew wearing Depends so neither has to leave the flight deck.

German paper Der Spiegel says the pilot had taken a several month break during his education to treat depression. The break is confirmed by Lufthansa but the reason was given through the pilots personal circles - Lufthansa is not commenting citing medical confidentiality.

I also read that there are no psychological evaluations of pilots. :eek: I am pretty sure that is going to change very soon.

Horrible way to go for the passengers and crew. Run into the ground in a perfectly good airplane by a madman.

G

Maybe they should think about the door being opened and maybe even flight controls taken over via comms from Airbus head quarters. Not sure how they'd go keeping comms secure but I'm sure there is a way. The military can do it.

It's like anything in life.

There is risk of dying every day. You can't wrap all airplanes in giant prophylactic bubbles so they bounce harmlessly off the mountain.

When some idiot psycho wants to kill you, you are probably going to die. That sounds harsh, but reality is sometime harsh. We have the best we can do, and guess what? You can't control everything in life. I would even go as far as to say that you can't control most things in life.

Further reasons for remote-controlled air flight in our near future. The sooner the better.

Until it gets taken over by terrorists, similar to what the Iranians did with that top secret US drone, although apparently the security of the drone was lacking.

Europe needs to adapt the US carrier policy of always two people in the cockpit.

I still don't see that as a viable solution. A determined male pilot/co-pilot can disable a female FA quite easily.

There are steak restaurants in US airports that server meals with real steel knives. There has to be a million ways for a pilot to bring an effective weapon into the cockpit.

Anything from a sun fart, cloudy day, flock of geese, or kid on a laptop can still make you splat into the ground like a watermelon.

The conspiracy-theorist in me wonders if European aviation investigators would ever blame a flaw (like software) in a European-owned airline manufacturer.

Yep, crew suicides with no known motive and terrorists with known motive. It would be interesting to get a profile on all of them and connect the common traits that lead to this madness. Might be a useful screening tool for airlines and others.

Rather than all the conspiracy/terror theories and suggestions for Triple-armored padlocked security-clearance fingerprint double dead-man switches and remote-control robot future-planes,

I suggest that we consider the SCALE of this incident related to the amount of flights flown daily in the world, shake your head, and mourn for the victims and their families, and move on.

Psychological evaluations for pilots seems like a good idea though.

You feel the same way about remote controlled cars?

Nothing is ever 100%. But another person in the cockpit might be that factor that stops somebody from their intentions of doing harm.

In a couple of weeks we will know everything there is to know about this co-pilot. What an incredibly selfish way to take your life. And to take with him over a hundred people that trusted him to get them to their next stop.

This is not good for the industry at all. I know that in the US pilots are allowed to be medically treated for depression and still retain their license. I never thought that was a good idea.

Why is it possible to set the auto pilot to an elevation of 100 feet when the ground below you is at a higher elevation? It seems like it should be able to adjust to avoid a crash. Of course, the pilot could have just switched to manual. Still...

I'm curious other than the pilot/co-pilot is anyone else on the flight crew trained to fly these complicated birds ? I ask because of the talk on here about always having two people in the cockpit rules. Seems to me if the 3rd person doesn't know how to fly the plane it has limited usefulness. I feel very sorry for the lives lost in this tradgedy and hope a solution can be found.

Perhaps not with the ability to fly but at a minimum to apply swift deadly force as needed. I am a very frequent flyer (over 100k miles on average during the past 26 years). This makes me very afraid. Hope there are no copy cats...

I understand what you're saying here but I'd bet the real prevalence of mental health issues amongst pilots is higher than the general population. Remarkable responsibility, long, difficult hours, separation from family, low pay (for many) multiplied by time--->STRESS.

So, your concern over getting treatment would force pilots with trouble farther underground. It's a really tough spot for everyone.

From what I understand - the co-pilot was Muslim - and we will at some point hear how that influenced this cowardly act.

Baz, do you have a link to an article?

No - this came from some jihad blogs in Germany and is not 'official' yet.

Or it is likely they are 'blowing smoke'.

Co-pilot Andreas Lubitz 'hid existing illness' from Germanwings - World - CBC News

"German prosecutors say they have found evidence that the co-pilot of the Germanwings plane that crashed in the French Alps appears to have hidden evidence of an illness from his employers.

Prosecutors in the western city of Duesseldorf say they seized medical documents from the home of Andreas Lubitz, 27, that indicate "an existing illness and appropriate medical treatment."
Lubitz house

Prosecutor Ralf Herrenbrueck said in a statement Friday that torn-up sick notes were found, including one for the day of the crash, to "support the current preliminary assessment that the deceased hid his illness from his employer and colleagues."


Best
Les

Considering the 'climate' in Germany I would expect the German government to be very, very careful about bringing jihad into this mix.

I'm thinking this will be check into thoroughly before anything goes public. (either that or completely swept under the rug).

Charlie,

I'm not a pilot, but here's an example. Glasgow airport. If you are approaching from the north, you are coming in over hills. If you wish to use the automated flight controls, you would enter the numbers you are seeking (altitude and heading ) while you are over the hills and proceeding on another heading. The aircraft does not instantaneously take you from your current altitude to the one you select, there is a descent rate which can be input or defaulted. By the time it reaches the newly set altitude, you are in the Clyde Valley.

A few months ago, someone posted a link to a uTube video which shows the pilot of a Lufthansa A380 entering the altitudes and headings in response to the tower's instructions. It is worth a watch.

Best
Les

Simple. The Ground Proximity Warning System only alerts when terrain is a threat. The pilot still has to intervene. In this case the autopilot could have been set to Level Change (for climbs or descents, descent in this case) with 100 feet dialed into the Altitude Select window and the airplane will obediently seek 100 feet of altitude while the GPWS sounds aural alerts all the way in. The pilot may also hand-fly and achieve the same results. There is no intervention by the autopilot for terrain or TCAS (other airplanes) alerts, the pilot has to intervene.

It does baffle me that the Europeans do not have a crewmember enter the flight deck when one of the pilots goes back to take a leak. We do that here in the US post 9/11. It's not because the pilot may be suicidal, it's because someone has to look out through the peep-hole and see if the other stews or the peeing pilot is not being held by a terrorist. If all looks well then the stew opens the door and the other pilot comes back in. They'll implement this procedure now.

If there had been a stew in the Germanwings flight deck when Depressed Copilot was flying (and the captain was pissing) the copilot may not have tried to take the jet down. As soon as the captain pounds on the door she opens it and he comes back in and averts disaster.

This is how aviation becomes safer by increments. Kill 200 people and THEN implement a new rule or safety measure. The only way to get a STOP sign put up in front of the park where little kids play is to have one or more little kid get killed by a speeding car. THEN the sign goes up.

"Tombstone regulation" is what it's cynically called by aviation accident investigators.

turning military and commercial aircraft into drones is sounding better...
they just need to make the technology more affordable than the pilots.

That'll be great until Chinese hackers crack a few of them.

Pay is a factor here too. I maintain that you would not see a 150K-250K Delta pilot do this. Besides, the Delta (or any major carrier worth a damn) hiring captains would spot this looney in the interview. Yes, Delta (et al) pilots, red-blooded American citizens, have it very good and are the best of the best. Low-cost budget carriers (and fly-by-night cheap cargo carriers) attract the guys who cannot get hired by the higher paying carriers. The fuc*ups and the losers with problematic training and flight histories wind up at the lower end of the pay scale.

Pay in aviation sucks period. Most pilot's see a huge salary reduction moving to an airline, as they were likely senior in a commuter type operation making decent coin as a smaller aircraft captain, then they move right seat on an airliner and drop %50 of their salary in the move.
The 150-200 K you think Delta pilots make is the top of the scale and is rarified atmosphere up there, not too many guys are in that area.
It would be nice to think an American carrier would do it better, but cost drives everything in aviation. This could easily occur on an American carrier just as it can on international carriers.
The lower end of the pay scale is not for losers and F ups, it is for the low time pilots on the way up. Hours are everything for pilots, they are not really commercially insurable until they hit 2500 or so. The good ones learn everything they know getting those 2500 hours, not driving a bus at 38k feet into massive airport centers.
I seriously doubt this guy came across as a looney in his interview.....People do crazy things, and that is something you will never be able to "procedure" out of life.

I was waiting for this.

So there you are sitting in First Class when the college intern--the cheap labor the airline hires in lieu of actually paying someone--walks onboard to program the flight computers. He slips the disc into the FMS and downloads the data. You see him having some problem getting it to take and then finally gets the data loaded. You ask the stew for another drink. Then the intern exits the flight deck and closes the flight deck door. He bids the A flight attendant (the one up front) farewell, steps into the jetway and closes the entry door with a firm thud. An automated voice comes on (cheaper than a real voice) and does the safety announcement. And as you taxi to the runway the FMS computer discovers a glitch and the jet stops. And you wait while the intern, sitting in a small office in the office area of the terminal, reboots the FMS. He then hits "resume" and the jet continues taxi for takeoff.

Feeling like you saved some bucks huh? Smart you! How's that free drink? Your mouth is dry? How come, you saved all that money flying on the no-pilots airline.

Oh, by the way, the airline suits won't "pass along the savings" when they are finally able to get rid of all their costly troublesome labor. You'll still pay all the money they can get from you to go to Las Vegas.

The simple solutions always seem so darn simple. If we could just ____________ the world would be a much better place.

Keep this in mind too. Corporate jets will NEVER have automated "drone" flight decks. The suits know damn well they want real pros up front, guys who know WTF they're doing and who won't screw up and kill them. It's YOU the traveling public who will get drone air travel. Cheaper.