I don't agree that it's unrealistic to think adults can manage what kids eat.

I think it's their job to do so.

Matt, I'm surprised you said this. To me, this is lazy parenting/school lunch planning.

As others have said, we ate what was put in front of us. There was no discussion, no amount of tears or sitting there or whatever, we ate what was put in front of us from the very start. It starts are home and it goes to school. Giving kids options for what they eat is, to me, like parents today wanting to be friends with their kids.

We make the reality we want. Adults need to take back what it means to be an adult.

as a kid I spent some long nights sitting at the dinner table trying to figure out how I could make the beef stew in front of me be gone without putting it in my belly.

nobody is advocating being a Nazi about it but I don't operate under the presumption that the food in our stores is good for us just because it's there.

I think we boomers must be the last generation that put a meal on the table that was planned by adults and was THE meal. Period. It was a matter of discipline and respect for parents.

My son's kids get away with being picky eaters. Kid 1 eats this and not that, kid 2 eats that and not this. Dinner time is two or three different meals. It's like they are at a restaurant ordering from a menu. Fortunately fast food and prepared food is forbidden, but they still tell the parents what they will and won't eat. It gives the kids get a sense that they are entitled to have what they want all of the time. That doesn't bode well for the reality of life.

This is turning into an "I walked to school uphill both ways" sort of conversation. BTW, if you don't have kids you really have no idea what you are talking about.

My job as a parent is to prepare my kids to make good choices ON THEIR OWN. Not when I'm looming over them with a switch demanding that they eat the entire plate of green beans that I served them. At home we have home-cooked meals every night, but I don't ask my kids to eat crap that I won't eat because I'm not a hypocrite. We don't eat junk, but we do have good food like hamburgers, steak, pizza, fish, etc. They clean their plates, which is sometimes a fight. Our goal with food is to teach our kids that you need a good balance, and that you don't waste it.

So let's take your multiple examples of "by God you'll eat what I give you" mentality. You know what happens when your kids go to school and get served tofu burgers, and you aren't looming over them with a switch? They dump the damn things in the trash, because they are gross. If you don't believe me, go eat lunch with your kids. Parenting isn't reflected in what you can force your kids to do, it's reflected in what your kids do when you aren't there.

My kids, btw, usually take a sack lunch to school. Their lunch will contain a main course, some variety of fruit, and some variety of chips/cookies. All three are skinny, athletic, and active, which is the real key to all this. But activity takes effort, and God forbid we tell kids (and parents) to get off their asses. Activity is why kids 30 years ago weren't fat.

On the table we have Old School Adults vs.Parents who want to be friends with their kids leading to Entitlement Kids

Letting kids get what they want does not lead to good decision making. It makes kids feel entitled. We have a generation of millennials as proof.

ftfy

I read this as a bunch of rich old with guys pretending to imaging what it is like to be poor.

YMMV

I would like to propose an experiment that we on this thread could do.

You can do it in real life, or you can do it as a thought experiment - but in the latter case, actually go to the store and use reality-based foods, prices, quantities, please.

The experiment is to feed your household on $142/month or $33/week.

That is the approximate monthly spending on food by the bottom 10% of households by income., as estimated from the sources below.
- Percent of household income spent on food/housing, by income decile
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-04-06/americas-poor-spend-60-their-income-food-housing-proving-cpi-meaningless
- Interactive site - enter household income and see the decline you are in, by state
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/01/15/business/one-percent-map.html?_r=0

Interestingly, $140 is also the average SNAP (supplemental nutrition) monthly benefit - i.e. EBT "food stamps" - paid in Oregon.

Don't cheat. Cheating is using oils, staples, spices, etc from your pantry/freezer (everything has to be bought on $33/week), using unusual cooking tools (no sous vide cooker - you have a couple burners, some pots, maybe an oven, maybe only a toaster oven), spending impractical amounts of time food shopping and preparing meals (say max 2 hours/day), buying foods in bulk (no $300 CostCo trips), buying foods only available at distant places (anywhere you can't regularly get to on the city bus, or on foot), or using advanced foodie-type cooking knowledge.

Let's see what we come up with.

$33 dollars would barely cover the bar tab for one night of most of these fine gentlemen...

'Are there no prisons?"

'Plenty of prisons,' said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.
'And the Union workhouses.' demanded Scrooge. 'Are they still in operation?'

'The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?' said Scrooge.

'At this festive season of the year, Mr Scrooge,' said the gentleman, taking up a pen, 'it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the Poor and destitute, who suffer greatly at the present time. Many thousands are in want of common necessaries; hundreds of thousands are in want of common comforts, sir.'

'Both very busy, sir.'

'Oh. I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course,' said Scrooge. 'I'm very glad to hear it.'

'Under the impression that they scarcely furnish Christian cheer of mind or body to the multitude,' returned the gentleman, 'a few of us are endeavouring to raise a fund to buy the Poor some meat and drink, and means of warmth. We choose this time, because it is a time, of all others, when Want is keenly felt, and Abundance rejoices. What shall I put you down for?'

'Nothing!' Scrooge replied.

I am not wasting my time on a social experiment. I ate like that when I was in the Navy and in college, cheaper than that even. I was eligible for food stamps but would not take them. How about you do it and report back to us. I worked and bettered my situation, I lived on $800 a month as a resident. I give at the office, you would not believe how much free stuff I do for people that are on Medi-Cal. 100% of it, because the wise folks in our legislature decided it would be smarter for diabetics to get their legs cut off than to spend a few pennies on prevention.

Yes, a cycle would self perpetuate without outside influence. There is outside influence in this case, and has been for your entire life.
You can't freeze salad or put "lettuce substitute" in it to make it look bigger
I think the point was that government expansion in the form of these programs is a nefarious thing.
I agree. That is why I think we should let them do so unless there is a compelling not to allow it.


So we will hire people to do this at school then, good. That last line is a strong argument against these programs.

I believe we also have a few non-parents who know how to raise kids. Also a few who could be my father, whose parenting tactics I explicitly try to avoid.

This is one of the well documented problems in cities like Houston. In the lower income areas where many receive "food stamps", there are no nearby large grocery stores with good selections of healthy foods at reasonable prices. There are mainly "corner stores" with very limited selection, high prices and stocking mainly junk food. It is rather difficult to take a bus to a Wal-Mart, buy a weeks worth of groceries and haul back home on the bus.

The reason no large stores? They say stores in those type neighbor hoods generally do not operate with enough profit margin to warrant building them. Kind of a Catch-22.

A side note: I recently saw a rather well dressed woman buy $90 worth of t-bone steaks in a Kroger and pay for them with a "Lone Star" card... which is TX EBT (food stamp card). Makes you wonder exactly how she qualified for food stamps and there is a lot of that happening.

Agree, but we have to have adults first, not friends of children.

Programs are necessary because we have friends of children raising children. Or we can herald in a new crop of ultra-millennials down the road.

Which would you rather have?

How do you raise your kids Shaun?

I KNEW that was coming, thanks Matt, you didn't disappoint.

I have some ideas but I know what I won't do. I like how we were raised though I probably won't pass along the extreme work ethic that we were taught.

I can only answer on a case by case basis here as I'm not sure I can put a cogent philosophy down right this moment. But in general, I like a foundation of discipline, structure and boundaries on which you can base everything else. I appreciate greatly that when my parents made a decision, that was it. Resolve is a good thing.

I have interviewed, hired and fired a lot of millennials recently. I've never seen such a poor crop of people who are whiny, self-absorbed and need constant reinforcement even though they have absolutely no skills. They are the fruit of parents wanting to be friends with their kids. I think letting children get what they want inspires an entitlement mentality where they can't adapt to things that don't go their way.

I'm a big fan of discipline.

Shaun, I could give you plenty of advice on how to create and market clothing. After all, I wear clothes so that qualifies me, right? Of course the answer to that question is hell no, what does an aerospace engineer know about creating and marketing clothing?

That's about as relevant as arguing that because you were once a kid with parents that you know how to parent. Sorry, but that means you know jack about parenting. On day one when your first child is born you realize how stupid you really were, and that the reality of parenting is NOTHING like you envisioned it to be.

This is quickly turning into a broad brush get off my lawn thread. I know lots of great kids who work hard, and plenty of lazy ones. Same applies to every generation. I know plenty of baby boomers that I wouldn't hire for minimum wage. Maybe during interviews you should ask if their dad made them eat green beans?

OK, Matt.

I always thought the "Live Below the Line" concept (more on a global hunger/poverty scale) was interesting. Living on basically $1.50 per day...

https://www.livebelowtheline.com/us/challenge
https://www.livebelowtheline.com/us/resources

So what you're saying is would you use an auto mechanic who doesn't own a car?