She is right, you went off on a tangent that was not really apropos to the discussion. Her political likes and dislikes are not really relevant to the topic. One could be of any variety of outlook.. dem, rep, libertarian and still think that legalization is way to go.

Of the two alternatives offered here, legalization with gov't regulation vs. remaining illegal with gov't regulation (ie laws) the former would result in better working conditions than exist now. Certainly better chances for keeping out the criminal and violent elements.

Whether she is s Bush fan or a Clinton fan does not really enter into this at all.... not at all....

total non sequitor...

ouch!

HUH?! Guessing once upon a time you would have been a world is flat guy?

So you really get that your are apple and oranges here right?

In all seriousness, making prostitution legal would not alter its fundamental dynamics and would not prevent any of the adverse effects that currently goes with illegal prostitution. Legalization would give the imprimatur of societal approval, which I do not think is a good thing.

But the people who become prostitutes, legal or illegal, are the same people - woman who were abused when young, addicted to drugs, and taken advantage of by older men. The pimps will become "managers" who enjoy legal status and will continue to coerce their stable under the color of law. Organized crime will still traffic runaways, illegal immigrants, and other vulnerable populations. Johns will pay extra to circumvent the safety regulations.

Healthy women do not make their living by exchanging money for sex with high volumes of strangers. Women who have the choice do not choose that lifestyle. That means that there is an element of compulsion in prostitution, whether it's legal or not. The prostitute is not making a free decision to charge extra to not use a condom, or to let him tie her up, or beat her, or make her eat scat - she does it because that's how she makes her living - by charging whatever she can for whatever weird kink the john wants satisfied. The porn industry is legal. But it's still controlled by organized crime. Legal prostitution is like that on steroids.

In Western European countries where prostitution is legal, the girls are not locals. They come from Russia, the Czech Republic, etc. That's not a coincidence. They're trafficked there by organized crime because the relatively wealthy Western European women who are citizens of that country have the luxury of choosing whether to be in that lifestyle or not. The women working as prostitutes don't have the luxury of that choice.

Think about legalizing prostitution to its logical extreme. So all of a sudden it becomes legal. Young single mothers on welfare with no education now have a profession open to them that will support their families in style. Are we as a society going to demand that they become prostitutes since they are now able to support themselves with legal work? There's a fine line between saying that it's acceptable and society encouraging the behavior.

Highly paid courtesans would differ with your stereotyping MRM. Prostitution as a choice is not always to be laid at the door of childhood abuse. That is actually very demeaning to women in general. Women are complex, diverse and individual. Some women survive childhood abuse and become stronger and more independent, some women have never experienced childhood abuse, and see sex for money as a mere commodity. You are doing two injustices here - not only demeaning women as unable to survive abuse as well as unable to differentiate sex as a commodity as compared to sex as 'closeness'. Apparently, in your discourse, you feel that men are able to understand sex as commodity, they purchase the services of a prostitute, and leave, able to function as they did before. However, it appears that women are not able to do the same.

There have been plenty of women who have chosen prostitution as a means to an end, selling sex. It can be a lot of money in a relative short amount of time. They may enjoy sex with a variety of partners, and the addition of payment is a monetary bonus. It may be a way to make a few extra dollars on the weekend, and enjoy a trip to Cabo. You say you are this 'feminist' however, you are extremely judgmental and quite narrow-minded when it comes to women and sex. Believe me, there are plenty of 'wealthy European women' who did it on their backs. Good for them, set the price, make the money, and maybe enjoy your work. Your ideas are at best puritan in nature (how about emblazoning them with a large letter "A"), and at the worse extremely chauvinistic. That woman is free to say no, if prostitution is legalized, and if she says yes, she sets the price.

You paint what you think are horrific scenarios, however, those scenarios happen right now, with the woman being forced to comply, not getting paid, getting beaten and abused. Yes, sometimes sex isn't pretty, but it is far better those scenes you paint happen between consenting adults, with all the money on the table going to the provider. She is making a free decision - she can say no. Some strippers stay topless, some go full nude - they choose, just like with actresses who decide to go topless in movies or not, or any one who works for a living. If you don't feel comfortable doing it - you don't. Free choice. However, with illegal prostitution, all that choice is pretty much gone.

If she wants a manager she can have one, if not, that is an option as well. Add to that, managers will now have to compete for the best product. They will make their services better so they acquire better women. If they want to keep them, they will make sure they get a larger amount of the money, that their working conditions are good and safe. Her choice, she can walk out and leave, without fear of being beaten. And, if she is, she has retribution available. If prostitution is legalized, she can go to the police, and report the abuse, because she will not be arrested for prostitution. Just like with prohibition, the criminal element will soon move on - the large profits just won't be there any longer, legalization has proven over and over to do just that - remove the criminal element.

And you too are going down some odd slippery slope - suddenly we will be 'requiring' single moms to become prostitutes, really - that is a logical step here? We don't make them sweep sidewalks, where in the world do you get the leap to society forcing prostitution? That isn't a fine line - that is an insane brush stroke.

You are hung up on sex as a commodity, it certainly can be, and has been one forever. It isn't wrong to view sex as something special and wondrous between two people, but it isn't wrong to view it as a commodity either. There isn't any sin in consensual adult sex, for money or for love....

MRM,
I can appreciate your perspective and I agree that prostitution has a dehumanizing effect. It always has and it always will. I do have a lot of trouble with your suggestion that legalizing it puts women at greater risk. Do you have any compelling data or studies that support that women are at significantly more risk, or areas of legal prostitution become more blighted in first world countries with reasonable regulation of legal prostitution (Nevada, Amsterdam, Germany) than similar areas where it is illegal (but practiced regularly by organized crime)? Without this it seems you are simply projecting your own personal values and judgements as seen through your own lens. If there are data and studies on this, the results should be clear and compelling.

Foxpaws:

What! You're saying the lil wimmin should be trusted to decide for themselves who they are going to have sex with, and on what terms?

Preposterous!

Next your're going to say they should be trusted to vote, or drive an automobile without male supervision.

Won't anyone think of the children??

As I said earlier nothing changes. You guys are over analyzing as per usual. The same women become working girls. Not different ones, or more of them. It just becomes not illegal, which generally doesn't concern women who work in this industry.

Working in a large corporation also has a dehumanizing effect.

Bosses always with their demands, telling you what to do, treating you like a slave. Wrongfully blaming you for things you didn't do. Forcing you to work on weekends. Denying you your individuality to do things how you think they should be done. Forcing compliance with ridiculous corporate rules and regulations.

It's horrible out there.

And some of these cubicle workers are - gasp - single mothers! Single mothers! And, even worse, not doing it for personal growth or in the pursuit of a satisfying career, but only doing it for the money.

There are tons of unnacceptable behaviors that are encouraged so I would say pointing out what we as a society have or will become sounds righteous but doesn't seem to be a valid argument with regard to public policy. That ship has sailed long ago.

Generally though I agree and think legalizing prostitution would not have much effect on peoples' behaviors. Bad things will continue to happen.

:)

I know - its that radical crazy in me talking again. ;)

Yes they have. And then there is your moronic attempt to equate a woman's choice of work with being beaten up by her spouse.

I suppose people who think prostitution should be outlawed also think that pornography and stripping should be outlawed?

Because those things are hella dehumanizing, right?

I can't see how a woman choosing to accept money for one on one sex is so dehumanizing that it needs to be outlawed

but a woman agreeing to be degraded by 3 guys at the same time, to be filmed and posted to the internet is not dehumanizing and all good?

Wow, two days and four pages later it is almost exclusively adult conversation.

Not the way I would have bet this thread would go when I started it.

McLovin, that is what I am thinking about. What is the difference between making a movie and doing the same thing without a camera? One is illegal

Ok, how many of you guys have ever spoken to a prostitute in a significant way (other than the presumed business transaction)?

You would find the conversations telling and interesting and yes, I have in fact had a number of conversations (outside of the business of course) and find there are as many stories as there are women.

Ms. Paws has it right.

Dennis

Pornography should be outlawed.

The people who become porn actresses, are the same people - woman who were abused when young, addicted to drugs, and taken advantage of by older men. The porn producers are "managers" who enjoy legal status and will continue to coerce their stable under the color of law. Organized crime will still traffic runaways, illegal immigrants, and other vulnerable populations for their pornography.

Healthy women do not make their living by exchanging money for being filmed having sex with high volumes of strangers. Women who have the choice do not choose that lifestyle. That means that there is an element of compulsion in pornography, whether it's legal or not. The porn actress is not making a free decision to charge extra to not use a condom, or to let herself be filmed being tie up, or have sex with 4 guys at a time, or with other women - she does it because that's how she makes her living - by charging whatever she can for whatever weird kink the porn producer and the public wants satisfied.

I had a friend who was an escort. It was her choice. She and her boyfriend ran her business and I guess they did OK financially. She was a smart girl without a lot of ambition who found it easier to use certain of her assets rather than others. I suspect if it wasn't for her rather kind and protective boyfriend she would have been on the streets working for Velvet Johnson. For her, legalized prostitution would have been a big help, but might have lowered her income.

How about R Rated movies? Flashing a little T&A or simulated sex scenes are really no different. They are filmed to entice the voyeur.

I whore my body out to my employer every time I go to some backwater site. It uses me up at times, I give of myself physically.

Why is this form of physical product for compensation not demeaning but, a woman providing a physical product considered so?

It's amazing those that are hung up on the act of sex itself when for some prostitutes it's only a matter of a day's worth of manual labor, like digging ditches.

I also find it telling that everyone is almost exclusively referring to female prostitutes in the conversation. It really points to the demographic of the board and the instilled instinct to protect.

Growing up in Texas back in the 1960s and early 70s, most everyone was aware of a number of brothels. They were in operation against the law but not much was done to enforce the laws at that time. The most famous of course was the "Chicken Ranch" in La Grange, the story of the closing in 1973 became a Broadway Musical and Hollywood film, The Best Little Whore House in Texas. However there were others that were shut down about the same time in Sealy, Kemah, Dickinson and a few other places. A lot has been written about them since and no connection to organized crime was ever established. Some would say they were their own little crime syndicates because they were all breaking the law. The various writers who interviewed the madams and the girls said there was no coercion and the girls were free to come and go as they pleased. Allegedly many of the girls were University of Texas Coeds working to pick up a little extra cash. There was an "understanding" with the local law enforcement agencies that the girls would get regular checkups. In the end it was Texas Attorney General John Hill who put the pressure on for getting them all closed and enlisted the help of Houston TV personality Marvin Zindler.