Z-man,

What is happening in the drivers mind should be calm and calculated. Smooth? I don't see how that can be applied to thought processes. Smooth is an adjective that can be applied to what the car is doing or what the driver is doing. We want the car to appear to be acting smoothly on track and, for this to happen, sometimes the driver has to be not be smooth with his inputs to accomplish this.

Racecraft has nothing to do with driving at the limit. Racecraft is what happens while two or more guys are racing each other while driving at or beyond the limit and sometimes below the limit.

A driver at a DE might be driving at 7/10th or he might be driving at 10/10ths. How smooth driver looks could be very different between the two.

Smooth - I define that as if you drew a graph of available grip, and a line of what a driver was asking from the car, the two would coincide. Whatever input made it happen, was being smooth. There is a 3rd dimension that applies in corners that are not grip or power limited of asking the minimal amount required.

This 3rd dimension is why the cars move several feet off line when pack racing at Daytona or 'Dega. If you are trying to hold the car to a line it is wasted tire friction as the car is buffeted aerodynamically in ways that are constantly changing. Better to let the car move a foot or two, then the extra friction of trying to fight the constantly changing side ways aero forces. Its probably one of the hardest forms of race driving there is IMHO.

From video #2, I concluded that it is, indeed, risky to slalom at 75mph ...

As per Winders, I think these guys are being smooth.

(I’ve got a lot to learn, and what I have learned so far is that there is a lot more buffer “out there” than I would ever have imagined. Tiptoeing against the edge of traction is not exploring the limit, its entering the fast zone on these 911s...just don't wait for the car to tell you what it wants or it is already too late).

Andrew Smith in car camera
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For what it looks like form outside, see Chris Harris (start at 4:45)
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VIDEO #4 Saw this in a sig.
https://vimeo.com/913777

Good save, but what happened in #4 ?
He seems fine, and then suddenly he's all over the place. Scary.
Did he let up the clutch in in middle of the turn?
I see a puff of white smoke in the rear view.

VIDEO #5 Saw this in a sig.
https://vimeo.com/913750

What about #5?
I see him reach for the shifter right before he loses traction.

You are never going to learn anything this way.

I like watching the videos, and have enjoyed the commentary thus far in this thread.
Thank you.

I have a pretty good perspective on the first video from this post as I am the 'guy' driving.

First I didn't lift until the rear end was already completely around. Second I didn't run out of track what so ever. I was using the same line as I had the laps prior to. In fact I had set my fastest lap the lap prior to the spinout. What I may have done wrong was pulling the wheel right too fast trying to set up for the lefty coming up.

When an accident happens like this the PCA, the day was a sanctioned PCA DE, investigates what happens. Both myself and the instructor that was in the car had to go to the infield care center for evaluation. We were fine as I have Recaro race seats & 6 point harnesses in the car. The instructor told the PCA I just out ran the tires. Now don't get me wrong the accident was completely my fault as I was behind the wheel & on my dime, (literally, $11,000 worth of damage).
The instructor was teaching me throttle steering. I grasped the concept really well. Of course the tires got hotter than I had ever experienced and I crashed, bottom line. As a poster said earlier I was one of the folks that go 100%.

I made mistakes no doubt about it. I'd caution not to assume anything from a video though.

Buck, thanks for posting. How is your car today? Back in action?

I read this analysis thread about Buckterrier's crash.
Can someone explain what "track out" and "pinch" is ?

TRack out is allowing the car to go all the way to the opposite side of the track after going through a turn. Pinch is a bit of the opposite...the car wants to naturally track out, pinching is forcing in...staying in the turn more than you should.

From watching this video I learned I should never race in the rain. ;)
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Maybe spend time watching someone doing it right rather than the offs and screw-ups.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZw7ZnxWKjs

Thanks for adding this info,but more importantly, thanks for posting the video in the first place. Regardless of what actually happened in your instance, it did make me think about the consequences of pinching at corner exit. Even if that wasn't what happened in your video, it sure made me think twice about it, which is good value in my opinion.

Thanks!

Your welcome. Yeah the car is fine but was down for a year and a half. Haven't been on the track since, not that I sure wouldn't like to but circumstances have changed.

You are welcome also Wayner. A lot to think about on the track. But it sure is fun!! I have another vid posted from Watkins Glen with a musher happier ending lol.

Just came across this old one. I'll add it to the collection.
Understeer 101.

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WTF is "CARBÄHN" supposed to mean? :rolleyes: That guy was just going too fast trying to keep up with the other car. I can't see what else went wrong ... Scary stuff on a public road. Easily could have died. I wish people would go to an AX and track event instead and get some instruction.

G

^^^ this. He was too concerned with his cool factor.

When I've driven a car anywhere near it's limits, whether AX or willow springs or California speedway or laguna seca, I was always so focused and concentrating so hard I'd have a tough time answering a simple question.

I can't imagine being so cocky and so full of myself as to be jabbering on an on like that.


But then again I'm slo and ain't gots no skilz in a race car.

I see this in karting when drivers are used to short races, put them a race of 3X the distance, and their "at the limit style" will have them limping around the track 2-3s slower than the guys who drove to conserve the heat in the rear tires.

The opposite is also true, the first time you drive rubber designed to grip at temperatures much higher than what the ambient temp the tires were sitting at is, can be a VERY rude awakening.

The wrong tires were installed on the rear of my '44, without a compound designed for winter temps. I not thinking, drive gently around a corner at about 15-20MPH, only to find my hands going for almost opposite lock as my car goes sideways trying to occupy two lanes. Fortunately, two lanes going my direction early morning without traffic.

I have never unintentionally repeated that experience again EVER.

What did the grey BMW at 7:00 do wrong?
https://youtu.be/SwN86seWo2E?t=7m3s

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yup. car control has to be instinctual in these cases. its fine if one can talk there way out of these mistakes, not lifting, countersteering faster, etc. but none of that matters without the instinct to do it train into you. and that means screwing it up a few times too.

most of these spins/mistakes are really bad throttle work, not bad wheel work. wheel work is typically not that tough, strange, or unpredictable, and most poeple are pretty insintually good at pointing the front wheels where they want the car to go.

what they are not good at, is the subtle throttle manipulations required to keep and maintain a line. and having an instinctual level of control over the throttle petal takes a long time and a lot of work.

VIDEO #8 (5:20 or click this direct link https://youtu.be/C9w9h5mYQtE?t=5m17s)
Should he have straightened the wheel once he was on the dirt, and then slowly edged back onto the track?
Or better yet, just safely roll to a stop?
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This one is almost identical (VIDEO #9)
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Ask your PCA instructor about "two feet down" at your next DE event.

Saving a car takes a bit more skill.

Differential traction and turning don't go together. If you get two wheels off, keep the front wheels pointed straight and coast down to a reasonable speed. If you can inch over onto the track, fine. But any real steering input at speed is going to be risky.

This is easy for me since I road raced motorcycles. You learn the lesson real quick on a bike!

VIDEO #9
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A good save should be followed by some driver emotion.
my example.
https://youtu.be/AVM8-WhXheY?t=7m38s

Sugar, I think you aren't the same guy that started posting these vids and started asking questions a few years back, but I suspect, you could probably learn a lot by reading these.

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http://www.hortonsbooks.co.uk/image/...01-500x560.jpg

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One of the problems with trying to figure out what went wrong in these videos is that you don't know the preparate of the car and you may not know the track. The car could have crap tires, crap alignment, corner balance issues or some other issue and the track could have a bump, a slick spot, oil mid corner, etc.... I suspect most of the issues are driver caused, but ever that, without having telemetry from the car to tell us what was going on with the gas and brakes and steering (added to the track conditions, bumps, elevation changes, etc...) means most of this is guessing (other than where the driver has chimed in.

Everything that Steve and Scott have said is spot on. There is a big difference between an experienced racer and car going off, and novice or intermediate DE driver. With the former you can rule out many mitigating factors (as Steve pointed out). With an amateur there are way too many possibles, with driver error being the biggest. When learning, the hardest thing to overcome is the instinct to lift or correct too abruptly when things get squirrley - especially in a rear engine car where any sudden change in inputs can unbalance the whole apple cart in a hurry. I personally grew up driving is bad conditions in a VW bug with no snow tires, so getting sideways became second nature - did the same on dirt bikes too. It's all practice - or as they say in jazz musician circles " the first 20 years are the hardest"...

Yeah saw that BMW 318 crash over on Jalopnik. Brakes are more important than engine swaps as this guy found out. Likely he lost a brake line to improper routing, abrasion causing the rest.

Had my first track day recently. Would only do it after completely going through brake system front to rear. New seals in calipers, pads, fluid, recent lines and master cylinder etc. Even fresh bushings in pedal cluster.

Ended up being more concerned about my car surviving the hamfisted instructors. One guy nearly broke my new ignition key, took many straightening attempts with two pairs of pliers to get it to even start the car. Second guy let clutch out at the wrong time causing a terrible gear noise in 4th which now has a slight noise on downshifting from 5th. Thanks PCA but from now on it's open track days for me....

PCA instructors drove your car?

Yes. No one shows up and drives solo or first until instructor takes a lap or two with you. At least in this region. Probably would've been better to have same instructor all day but there were so many newbs that they floated between cars. I will say the instruction was REALLY good.

I never drive a students car. I'd feel terrible if something broke or worse. If they're not getting it I'll take them out in my car at a speed I'd want them to do.
I've heard of some PCA regions that want instructors to drive the students car in the first session. I'm glad my region doesn't (Upper Canada).

Following up on my little hijack saga.

Turns out that a PO had replaced my shift coupler bushings (poly) and one of them was not a tight fit. Not apparent at first. The hamfisted shift possibly caused it to migrate. This and a slightly worn cone screw must've caused the noise which I now think was from nicking reverse. I put a stock coupler back in and the shifting is great with all five forward gears.

So not so much an instructor issue. I'm sure it's difficult driving different cars in various states.