Classic not an investment ? Hagerty chart

[Deschodt]

Anyone see that ?

https://www.hagerty.com/articles-videos/Articles/2015/07/10/Graph-of-the-Week-the-Average-Classic-is-Not-an-Investment?utm_source=ExactTarget&utm_medium=email&utm_term=&utm_content=&utm_campaign=Hagerty%20Weekly%20News%207-22-2015

It's kinda funny to me as every car I want has tripled in the last 10 years...
911s, 912, Alfa, Pagoda, 190SL, Alpine A110, etc...
But I guess on average, not so much !

[wildthing]

Well, if you bought AMZN or GOOG in 2005 you'd be richer, but then you can't drive AMZN nor GOOG.

[aigel]

Of course a classic car is not an investment. Most TANGIBLE assets are not good investments in terms of return, but a good portfolio will always have tangibles. Real estate, gold, cars, guns - they all don't make you money, but they are solid, tangible and often enjoyable.

G

[KNS]

Not saying that the market hasn't been on the rise but as someone stated over in the Marketplace forum, it's sort of in Hagerty's interest to show values go up - no..?

[tabs]

Originally Posted by aigel

Of course a classic car is not an investment. Most TANGIBLE assets are not good investments in terms of return, but a good portfolio will always have tangibles. Real estate, gold, cars, guns - they all don't make you money, but they are solid, tangible and often enjoyable.

G

This is pretty much an on the money assessment. I have always seen the Tangibles as being a store house of value, maybe you win, lose or draw but they always have value. Over the years I have whacked the check book hard over some of this stuff, where as for depreciating assets you would be loath to get a dime outa me.

Collecting things only came into vogue after WW2 when Americans had money in their pockets to burn.* From that point forward collectables have been a rising priced asset as it matched or surpassed inflation. Many times the higher than inflation ROI was due to that particular asset becoming a desirable flavor. However now we are not in a period of inflation but deflation, here certain Tangible asset classes have become a desirable place to park money or should one say value. It seems that people now would rather have the Tangible asset
than currency. Here we see the prices of certain Tangibles remaining ever strong and increasing. While others are languishing.


* Before the Great Depression of the 1930's certain Tangibles had cache, but rarity and quality always does have value. Mostly people wanted new as the quality was equal to or better than the old stuff and what happened yesterday wasn't regarded with being anything special.

[Deschodt]

I'm not restarting the classic car as investment debate, and I get that google or apple stock did well...

What amuses me is that they claim that overall the classic car market has been flat... Really ???? That is not the impression I get from reading SCM, or trying to buy the cars I like.... How much was a 911S in 05 ? A Pagoda ? A 356 ? I struggle with the numbers here, given that all my personal favorites tripled in value in that timeframe (I'm a man of taste I guess), what others have gone down so bad ? Maybe if they include brass era cars, I guess all those guys are dead now ?

[tabs]

Originally Posted by Deschodt

I'm not restarting the classic car as investment debate, and I get that google or apple stock did well...

What amuses me is that they claim that overall the classic car market has been flat... Really ???? That is not the impression I get from reading SCM, or trying to buy the cars I like.... How much was a 911S in 05 ? A Pagoda ? A 356 ? I struggle with the numbers here, given that all my personal favorites tripled in value in that timeframe (I'm a man of taste I guess), what others have gone down so bad ? Maybe if they include brass era cars, I guess all those guys are dead now ?

Brass era Horseless Carriages don't do well on Freeways at rush hour.

[Deschodt]

amnusingly, next colum onver is an article by Keith Martin (of SCM):

IT’S NOT A BUBBLE, IT’S A WAVE
By: Keith Martin
So why are we so surprised when GT350s, worth $50,000 five years ago, routinely sell for $200,000? Or when Z/28s, worth $35,000 in 2003, go for $100,000?

A great deal of the increase in values is due to the fact that many collectors buying today were not in the hobby five years ago. They don’t have the historical perspective of what these cars were once worth; they only know what they are trading for today.

Funny !

[TheMentat]

Originally Posted by Deschodt

What amuses me is that they claim that overall the classic car market has been flat... Really ???? That is not the impression I get from reading SCM, or trying to buy the cars I like.... How much was a 911S in 05 ? A Pagoda ? A 356 ? I struggle with the numbers here, given that all my personal favorites tripled in value in that timeframe (I'm a man of taste I guess), what others have gone down so bad ? Maybe if they include brass era cars, I guess all those guys are dead now ?

I'd be interested to see what cars made up the "100 most insured cars" as well. I'm a bit surprised by the investment performance, but it seems like the right way to draw a comparison.

[Cajundaddy]

I think their chart is skewed by Detroit classic muscle cars which jumped in value between 1995 and 2005 when gas was relatively cheap. They are seeing flat values since 2007 while Porsche and other exotics have risen in value. Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

https://www.hagerty.com/valuationtools/HVT/VehicleSearch/Report?vbe=21532
https://www.hagerty.com/valuationtools/HVT/VehicleSearch/Report?vbe=29769

[gtc]

I think you're right. The list is of the 100 most commonly insured cars at Hagerty, so 60's American iron probably dominates the list
As an example, there were over half a million mustangs built in 1965 alone - more than the entire run of air cooled 911s, I'd guess.
I doubt many Porsches made the list, let alone the ones that have really skyrocketed in value.

[Deschodt]

Originally Posted by Cajundaddy

I think their chart is skewed by Detroit classic muscle cars which jumped in value between 1995 and 2005 when gas was relatively cheap. They are seeing flat values since 2007 while Porsche and other exotics have risen in value. Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

https://www.hagerty.com/valuationtools/HVT/VehicleSearch/Report?vbe=21532
https://www.hagerty.com/valuationtools/HVT/VehicleSearch/Report?vbe=29769

Good point, that's gotta be it.... but I thought detroit iron's downturn was more recent than 2005....

[pwd72s]

People who worry about the price of things while not having a clue about their value disgust me.

When a car becomes so rare and sought after that it's too expensive to drive...to me it becomes valueless.

But what do I know? I'm just an old guy who parks an old green Mustang behind a pool hall.

[LakeCleElum]

It all depends on what you bought and when you got into the game: I really wish I'd kept my 1962 XKE Roadster and 1959 Austin Healey 100-6........I have a garage full of motorcycles where I've done well percentage-wise, but the total for the whole lot is not big money at all.

On the other hand: I have a total investment of $32,000 in a 73.5 Targa, '69 911 Coupe and 1960 MB 190 SL.....I could probably sell those for about a 500 percent profit? Not planned that way, sometimes you win, sometimes not so much....

[Deschodt]

Originally Posted by pwd72s

People who worry about the price of things while not having a clue about their value disgust me.

.

That's kind of a rough way to jump into a thread :-) This was as stated above emphatically not a "my car is worth $$$ - I'm scared to drive it" thread. I've read enough of those! Nobody seems worried about price vs value of things here so far! It was a comment on a strange report from Hagerty on a *flat* classic car market - which I haven't observed at all and contradicts what we discussed prior! I'm actually trying to buy another nice oldie before I no longer can, and finding all my targets too pricey. Quite the opposite of Hagerty's conclusions.

[Brian in VA]

Historic Automobile Group. Look at the Ferrari index. A little flat this year but otherwise up up up.

Old cars are cheap even in the millions compared to other limited things like art (what's that value?) and exclusive real estate, right?

[sc_rufctr]

Like all "investments" you have to invest in the right one. If you do your homework you'll be fine but there's always an element of risk.

What you don't want to do is buy that car that's been passed around to a few "can't quite afford it owners".

[patssle]

Everything in life just has to be an "investment". Home ownership is now unaffordable or financially unwise for the current young generation. Many classic 911's have doubled in price in just a couple years and become more unaffordable for many.

My 914 was cheap when I bought it and still is. I want to drive and enjoy it and not worry about its value or an accident ruining some inflated value.