I wonder how they determine the RON number, or if the additive package affects octane?

Go check out the Costco additive tanks. They are maybe a 3,000 gal. tanks. I don't see how this is a good idea.

As Sammy said (he knows his stuff BTW, if you aren't familiar with his long-time career field), basically all the gas in Southern California is crap. I've lived here my entire life and can't say I have ever noticed any difference EXCEPT when I put something like VP 100 in a car built/tuned to take advantage of it. That's cuz it's all equally bad!

Kinda funny aside - I just sold a GIAC-flashed Audi ECU from my (dead) S4 and the guy said he couldn't feel any difference in performance. After some head-scratching, he finally 'fessed that he was running 87 in the car. STOCK this car requires 91 minimum. It's a high-compression 5 valve/cylinder twin turbo V6... with the tune I'm sure he was getting severely retarded tuning and almost no boost.

UPDATE: 12/23/15...........four months later

RE: above quote
I missed this point because it had a typo in it, M in lieu of E.

This similar claim was just made elsewhere.

Big suburban or small jeep - Page 3 - Fuel Economy, Hypermiling, EcoModding News and Forum - EcoModder.com
About every six weeks I try gas from somewhere other than Shell and immediately notice a performance drop (in my S-10 and Porsche).

I'm sold on the stuff, and a loyal customer.

Besides, have you ever noticed inside your engine bay there is a decal recommending Shell? My 1977 has it, it's in storage right now otherwise I would take a photo of it.

If anyone wants to test their gas it's real easy and you don't need to buy a kit.

You need a small glass jar, tall and thin is best, but a baby food jar will work. A measured beaker would make the math easy.

Mark it out, you need to do the math, but you want the math to work out something like a 10%, 20% and 30% mark on the bottom and then a 100% in the middle, then a 10 and 20% mark at the top. (120%total)
Also it is best to scratch in the lines, ink/marker will wash off.

Fill with gas to the 100% line, add 10% water, the water will sink to the bottom.

Shake and let settle, if the bottom layer doubles you have 10% ethanol. If it tripled you have 20%, etc.
It works simply because ethanol mixes with water.

I've thought about removing ethanol with water, but since the ethanol effects the octane rating and I can get pure gas (premium) here easy, I've never been willing to try it.

Yes, it is.

Rusnak,
Saying Costco is an oil company is saying Walmart is a manufacturer - they are not. Both are a distributor and nothing more. The do not drill, pump, refine or package. They resell. Costco does have an interesting procurement department and I would suggest them over Sams / Walmart for volume quality but make no mistake - they are not an oil company.

In Ontario Canada there is only one refinery, so here Sammy is spot on correct.

Actually she'll v power is the only grade by a brand that does not include ethanol.

I think there must be an element of "The Power of Suggestion" here. When leaving the gas station, the car is still running on the old gas in the gas lines. The car will go a few miles before any of the fresh gas has made its way through the fuel system and to the engine.


Sorry. No such thing as seat of the pants "testing".

I'm glad you're happy with your opinion of Shell gas. I'm going to keep buying most of my gas from the friendly corner market, that happens sell Chevron.

A half-mile from my house, there is a shell station and an Arco station across from each other.

The Arco station is typically priced the cheapest in the area while the shell station's fuels are pretty expensive.
a 40 cent difference in price grade for grade is not unusual.

Both stations are owned by the same company.
Both stations get their gas from the same distributor.
The gas is made in the same refinery, in the same process, and the only difference is an ounce of additive (solvent) here and there.

It is all about marketing strategy. Some folks believe that gas is gas and that buying the cheapest (top tier) gas they can find is smart. And they are right. So the Arco brand caters to that market.
Arco sells gas very cheap, only making a few pennies per gallon. But they move a very high volume, which translates into enough profit to run the
station and sell ho-hos and zagnut bars and doritos.

The shell station caters to a different market segment, the one that says "you get what you pay for" which is pound foolish. People who are very susceptible to THE POWER OF SUGGESTION and advertising. ^^^^^^ see above.

That station only sells a fraction of the fuel that the Arco station sells, but with the very high profit margin it still covers the overhead and makes an equivalent profit.

There are no Shell oil refineries in So cal. There are no Exxon or Mobil refineries in So Cal (any more).
So guess where their stations get their fuels from? Typically from the same place. One refinery that makes 25% of all the fuels (including jet) in So Cal.
That refinery also supplies fuels to USA stations and Thrifty stations.

Sammy,

With your experience I don't question your knowledge on gas "quality". I have zero experience aside from putting the gas into my cars :D

But what about this??

http://www.maxim-x.com/pix/fuel+filter/Ethanol_in_Ontario.pdf

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1450888654.png

Can the ethanol vary between companies??

i use 95% Costco gas. there is one about a mile from my house, so i can easily duck out right at closing time for fast gas.

i go so often i got to talking to the workers. cool bunch of guys. they told me my Costco is the second busiest store with respect to fueling. a store in Hawaii is the top gas seller. here it the mind blowing part. 11 times a day. 11x a day!!!! a big rig comes to the store to fill up the underground reservoirs. i see them there all the time, but had no idea it was 11x a day. (the Hawaii store, i was told 14x a day). that is a lot of fuel!! there is no way that stuff isnt fresh as heck. i have never had an issue..the only time i dont get Costco gas is when i am on a roadtrip.

Sediement at the bottom of the reservoir? i cant believe it. 11x a day.

just filled up yesterday. $2.24 for regular..that is about $0.30 less than the Chevron. just how expensive is Techcron?

You're going off a recommendation that is nearly 40 years old. The Shell gas (and the agreement they had with Porsche back then) has changed in the last few decades.

My BMW (under the hood) says to use Castrol motor oil. But since that car was manufactured BMW has switched their contracted oil supplier to Shell/Pennzoil, which is what you'll find labeled under the hood of new BMWs. I'm confused - what to do...

Actually, I don't follow their suggestion at all and have been using my own choice of oil for the last 150,000 miles (almost 200K on it now).

As mentioned already, it's the additives or the amount of additives which differentiate gasoline. In the early 1990's the federal government mandated that refiners have a minimum amount of additives. Generally speaking, many refiner brands have 2-3 times this level of additive.They may have other unique qualities as well. Interestingly, Costco has 5 times this rate and they blend the additives at their stores. Look for the stainless steel box near their pumps. This way they can buy gasoline from any refiner they choose and still blend to their desired additive rate.

I admit I don't know about Petrocan. Maybe, Just maybe, they source from Montreal which would be a different refinery.

I'd have to test the canadin tire gas to conferm the 10% midgrade I suspect it's really is 5% BUT here's the rub there is no such thing as mid-grade gas from the refinery.

There is regular with 10% and premium with 0%...the PUMP mixes the two together and a voala! presto!...you have mid-grade gas with 5% ethenol.

It has been awhile since I've tested my gas. I did test most except Petrocan and Canadian tire, my local Petrocan are MF'in crooks And I don't care for CT much.
I just posted an easy test for ethenol content, try it yourself like I did.

You must be in California. Still on the shelves at any paint or hardware store here.

I used shell almost all the time until my m3 started misfire issue. After a month of diagnostic to replace many ignition and emission parts, the car finally needed a new tank of gas. After a fill up at another station, everything is normal again.

I rarely fill up at shell now. I find most cheap gas stations to have fresh gas at good price. There is even a 76 that sells gas at 20c less. Unfortunately, you sometimes have to deal with people that cut the line to get to cheap gas and there are no bathrooms. Those are the only downsides.

FYI Use yp app to search for cheap gas.

Cheap gas often comes from stations that have cheap owners, and low-life employees. Having once been in a business that sold, installed and serviced gas pumps and tanks, I choose not to buy gas from the cheap, older stations. What gets pumped in the tank may be the same but what comes back out is often not the same.

Then there's the temptation that some station owners can't resist, that of selling lower-than-labeled (octane) fuel in some of the tanks. Or ethanol fuels in tanks labeled as 100% gas...

I'm paying 1.89 for ethanol-free premium from a new-ish store a mile from my house that sells a good brand of gas. I see no reason to look for cheaper gas.

JR

Yeah, I'd call BS, too. There's a Shell station a couple blocks from my house; most expensive gas in town (by about 15 cents). I fill up there occasionally, and I fill up at other stations occasionally. NEVER any difference in performance or mileage from one station to another.

Yah, I search out clear gas. Fortunately here in OR there are several places that sell it. 110 octane race gas too. The old girl loves that juice!

-C

I would be interested in seeing the actual data / test results form the lab. While ethanol blended fuels can experience phase separation resulting in a wide range of results concerning the ethanol concentration, still wanna see the data and how it was tested.

Everybody knows what they know. The truth about gas around here is that it isn't all the same. And of course there are some gas stations that I personally avoid, due to the age of the tanks, and problems I have had in the past. I pulled a solid cup of rust out of a plastic 928 gas tank once. It had to come from somewhere.

Obviously, if I can buy non-ethanol premium here, it will not be the same as any other gas in the region.

As for additives, I do think that doubling the concentration could actually make a difference. You just doubled the concentration. Think about it. I don't really care about how much you know about anything. Facts are facts. How many micro grams of LSD does it take to mess you up ? Care to double that dose ? I buy from certain gas stations, because I know that they have newer tanks in good condition. I buy certain brands, because I trust that they will have the additives, and because I have read dyno tests over the years that seem to imply that certain gas brands DO make a difference.
Obviously, your mileage may vary.

Some people I don't really take seriously, no matter what their credentials are. This is simply due to knowing that there is something about their makeup that requires them to consider themselves right in every instance. IMO, that makes everything they say suspect. Sorry. Once again, double the additives is quite an increase. Anyone who says differently needs to review basic math. Are additive packages important ? MMM, could be, Rabbit, Could Be. But of course, those decisions are made at higher pay grades for obvious reasons. I don't do quantum physics. I am not a chemical engineer. I don't design additive packages. I don't second guess people who do just to save a few bucks a tankful. I can tell you that some chemical compounds will break down under certain conditions, some of which might be present in certain combustion chambers, and not in others. I also know that Nitrogen is an incorruptible element. Under certain conditions where some chemical compounds might break down, Nitrogen might in fact become more ''energetic''. That might not be a bad thing, at certain times, in certain circumstances. Consider specifically that carbon may be built up, or removed, in as small a quantity as one molecule at a time. Over time. Additives.

If you have a tuned car with a larger turbo, buy the gas it was tuned for. Don't be buying your gas all over town.

ZDDP in oil, is measured in PPM. Who needs THAT ???

Just so you know, there have been problems with the new direct injection engines. It apparently isn't as easy to keep an injector tip clean in a combustion chamber as it is in an intake port. Of course, there are other issues with direct injection engines, and other problems associated with leaner burns and higher temperatures. Some manufacturers and their chemists are working on problems associated with that.

But you are well read, and an expert, so you must already know that.

Calling people mush heads, and calling BS is just another way of stating an opinion in lieu of actual facts. Be polite, and don't substitute opinions for facts, if in fact you can. No one else here is being rude or insulting. All you are doing is losing the respect of the people you would like to convince of your authority.

You cost yourself, when you try to discredit others in such a manner. Gasoline research is quite different in Europe. As is some of the gas. Maybe someday America will catch up, if the boys in the lab can manage to achieve a better attitude.

Good posts Dan.

To the "all gas is the same" crowd, you are saying that additives make no difference and that ethanol content makes no difference, right?

Not much to discuss after that level of absurdity is there?

Haven't read much of the above, except for MD Holliway's response " all off the same rack".
He is entirely correct. Been associated refineries for 35 yrs. Most all majors at our loading racks to fill at their area stations and we visit their racks for stations in their geographic area. Big savings in trucking. What a surprise!

Dan, I have spent 20 years in the fuel and lubricant business. I spent 15 years in the world of additives and another 5 in the world of analysis (oils and fuels). I have had direct contact with all the majors and a bunch of the Indys. I have also worked directly wit the 5 that basically control the add-pact world. Do I use additives? Nope. Why/ because as far as I have seen it a bunch of snake oil. While there are certain chemicals that go into different oils and even fuels that would provide certain functionality, these applications and examples are a fools errand for the casual user that pretty much all here are. As for fuel, believe what you will. Sammy, a few others and myself are in the business. Its what we do. if you don't believe us and choose to believe what you will then there is really nothing more to say.

Some good information here. How about a choice between 91 octane non-ethanol, and 93 octane with ethanol? Which one would be a better choice for a "modern" Porsche that recommends 93 RON?

Thanks,

JA

I would always opt for ethanol free, too many instances where the ethanol soaks up water. If I could get 93 ethanol free in Tx I would.

I ran an '08 Boxster S for 6 years on 91 octane pure gas, with no ill effects. It rarely saw much full throttle use or a lot of revs, so I doubt it often got to the point that it had to correct the timing for the octane level.

I hate ethanol.

JR

On a daily driver, a newer FI car that is really used every day, ethanol laced fuel is likely OK, I've never had fuel issues with the wife's or my DD's on regular with 10%.
On any car that may sit for any period of time, even just a week (and any older car even if it's a DD) I will only use pure gas.


One thing I've always noticed about regular 10% is that within days it starts to smell like it's going sour. Where as pure gas, in a sealed gas can, will last a couple months before it starts to smell off.

That's why you always want a very full tank. The less airspace the less souring.

Totally agree and is what I always try to do, I'm just stating all things equal I always notice E10 gas going sour very quickly.

Sammy:

Are you still working for Valero? A Valero "station" (mini mart) recently opened up
the street. Would you recommend buying gas there?....91 octane for passes premium for my boosted Miata.


"Others" need not respond.

I left Valero in 2004.


EDIT: Valero does not have a refinery in that region, the closest one would be in the bay area near Frisco. So I doubt that gas is made by Valero.
Most likely Shell, Tesoro, BP or Phillips 66.



Up there, as with So Cal, 91 octane is 91 octane.

All ethanol is the same too, and it all sux.

If you can actually get real 91 octane without ethanol that is much better than with.

Ethanol has less btus per volume but artificially increases octane rating. It fools the engine into thinking it has higher octane than it really has.

non-ethanol 91 octane should cost at least 50 cents/gallon more.

But with the federal mandates, it is difficult to actually find road-use gasoline without ethanol.

The problem soon will be, where can I find 10% ethanol instead of 15% ethanol gas?

>EDIT: Valero does not have a refinery in that region, the closest one would be in the bay area near Frisco. So I doubt that gas is made by Valero.
Most likely Shell, Tesoro, BP or Phillips 66.<

Humm.....I suspected something like that.........thus the Q. Thanks

I can't agree with the all gas is the same crowd when my car clearly runs better on Union 76 than Arco.

It is pretty funny reading all of this, as I was with Bosch back in the '80s when we introduced fuel injection broadly to the US OEMs. All of them began having problems with clogging injectors, which, of course they blamed on us. However, we had no such problems in Europe. We quickly determined that it was all driven by the quality of the gas (type and quantity of additives) that would result in performance issues. In the US, major brands like Shell and Mobile were no issue, but there were so many smaller and generic providers that did not formulate at all appropriately. This was not the case in Europe, where formulations were much better (and they were still using largely leaded gas). As they transitioned to unleaded later than we did, the additive packages were more thoroughly formulated. Since the injectors were developed in Europe, they were, in fact, designed to run high quality fuels with appropriate detergent additives. Bosch had to make design changes to the injectors to accommodate this discrepancy.

Interestingly, if you fast-forward to today, there is another emerging issue regarding fuel quality: oligomer leaching from plastic fuel lines. plastic fuel lines have an inner layer of PA12 typically (high grade nylon). The problem is that in some regions (especially China) there are additives which are causing a break down in the polymer chain, and the resultant leached-out material clogs up the fuel system. Today, my company is a major supplier of fuel lines to OEMs around the world, and we are developing tube constructions with different materiials to address this. Bottom line, I learned a long time ago that quality of fuels matter, and this never changes.
Lyle.

The new mandates will force more ethanol on everyone, everywhere. This means finding 100% gasoline will also become more difficult.

I miss the old days when gas actually had a good smell. It may sound weird but I have memories as a kid of riding on the back of my Dad's motorcycle. It must have had a a tiny fuel leak somewhere because I always associate that bike with that unique gasoline aroma.

I remember those days...

At the time I was running the service department of a new car dealership with 4 different franchises. Electronic fuel injection was increasingly more common and driveability issues were getting bad. Clogged injectors, intake valve deposits... Lots of technical service bulletins were handed out from the manufacturers.

At that time, Phillips 66 still had their headquarters in Oklahoma and their R&D department bought vehicles from us to use in the testing of their additive packages. I know they were pretty serious about solving the problems and I
imagine they were not alone.

The infernal government has mandated so many changes to fuels in the last 30-40 years, I'm surprised it still burns. Even the alcohol-free crap that is sold now is worse in a number of ways than what I remember existing before the changes began in earnest.

JR