Do you really care if VW/Others manipulate EPA ratings?

[mikester]

Originally Posted by E Sully

Poor logic in my opinion. These 10,000 kids under 20 are injured or killed because someone did not follow the law either. The gun did not kill them, the lazy idiot or law breaker who left it available for them to get their hands on it is responsible. I would never leave my gun unlocked and in a position for someone else to get their hands on it.
Emission laws are too strict? They said the same thing many years back, but from what I see available today, the complainers were wrong then and now. It is possible, look at the high horsepower and low emission cars available now. I'm just sorry if you find it an inconvenience to put time and effort into being better in the long run.
Go to a car show and breathe in the exhaust from the oldies, llok at old pictures of major cities clouded in smog. I have no issue with the pollution from a few Classic cars in the hands of collectors, but to try and justify what VW execs did seems foolish.

I think the gun comparison doesn't hold up. My point was simple - if their ethics allowed them to lie about their product's emissions what else are they capable of compromising?

Professional Engineers are bound by a code of ethics and are liable for their mistakes. Are there PEs involved in the manufacturing and design of these cars? Probably not but still I think it is relevant. These people writing the software for this had to know what they were doing and if they did it here - where else might they have tweaked things for the test rather than real world application?

[1990C4S]

Originally Posted by gacook

Alternatively, has this scandal not proven that EPA's testing is "broken?" If VW was able to cheat the test all these years simply through software, does that not signal a failure within EPA and their analysis?

They used a dyno....how is that broken? I believe they do it indoors at a controlled temperature and atmospheric pressure.

The equipment required to collect emissions on the road is significant....there's a reason that they used a station wagon for the real world test.

And at some point you are loading the car down with so much equipment it's no longer a 'real world' test.

VW cheated and lied. And the EPA failed to catch them.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by gtc

You don't think that 11 million vehicles emitting up to 40 times the legal NOx limit is worth worrying about???

Well, I'm probably not going to get my panties all bunched up just yet. We don't know what the real impact is (you'd have to have an actual number, then put it into the context of the big picture, ie. worldwide NOx emissions), nor do we know if we are putting all our attention into the right place. Maybe there's something out there that needs more attention than passenger car diesel emissions.

Read this first:

http://www.harmo.org/conferences/proceedings/_Crete/publishedSections/p505.pdf

Then have a look at this:

Real-world exhaust emissions from modern diesel cars | International Council on Clean Transportation

JR

[johnsjmc]

I,m waiting to hear about other car manufacturers using similar EPA masking/defeat software.
Software developers move around don,t they ? Then what will happen if it,s discovered this is commonplace.

[jyl]

It doesn't matter if you personally give two hoots about the air we breathe. Even if you would happily dump poison into your or your neighbor's own drinking water or spew pollution into your own house, you can still be angry about VW's deception. Why? Because many other people do care about how much the cars pollute, and the views of those other people affects the market value of the cars, and thus the car for which you paid $25,000 to $35,000 is, very likely, going to be worth less now. VW has hit you in the wallet, not just in the lungs.

[sc_rufctr]

Originally Posted by johnsjmc

I,m waiting to hear about other car manufacturers using similar EPA masking/defeat software.
Software developers move around don,t they ? Then what will happen if it,s discovered this is commonplace.

I suspect this is as well.

A friend of mine bought a brand new Hyundai i30 Diesel. After about six months she had a minor issue with an electrical fault and it went back to the dealership for repair.

Before she sent it in her fuel economy was about 6 litres per 100kms but when she got it back it had jumped up to 8.5 litres per 100kms.
It's since been back multiple times and they can't fix the fuel economy issue. A jump of 2.5 litres is significant in such a small car.

Did the Hyundai dealership secretly reflash the ECU?

Car manufacturers often "fix" things in the dealership service area without ever telling the customer anything.

[patz]

I guess none of you ever coughed up a lung back in the 60s during "recess" and couldn't see the mountains in the Summer from anywhere in SmelLA?

Are the smog rules tough? Yes, are they still needed? Yes.

[dafischer]

Originally Posted by sugarwood

Stock is down 40%. Might be a buying opportunity.

Well, it sure ain't a selling opportunity.

[Cory M]

So you guys who don't care : if you bought a new Porsche 991 with an advertised 400hp, then you found out it was programed to only make that power on the dyno but reverted to a 250hp tune when driven, you wouldn't be upset?

How about the $51 million on clean air tax incentives we all spent on vw tdi purchases in 2009?

I'm no fan of the EPA but this scandal is absolutely shameful. It's one thing to have an accidental design flaw, it's a whole other thing to intentionally deceive your customers.

[Daves911L]

While I can't condone cheating, is it fundamentally different from all you guys that bolt your cats back on, or get your trusty 3mm long allen wrench out and give it a quarter turn lean when its time to go get the annual smog certificate?

How about the issues guys had years back getting MFI cars passed in Ca. because of the way the test was designed? Makes sense for the manufacturers to have some input in how their products are tested, and the current EPA seems pretty heavy handed about this.

Not to mention what seems to be a pattern of the DOJ of going after big dollar extorti......uh, I mean settlements, especially from foreign companies. Could this be the prelude to one of those actions? BTW, anybody ever tracked where all that money goes once its paid?

Wife has an A3 TDI. Quick little thing and smooth as glass. Nice technology. I get 50 mpg, give or take. Even if it is 40 times dirtier than the EPA standard, I'll wager its 40 times cleaner than diesels of previous decades. Have had a few problems. HPFP self destructed on a long highway trip, leaving us stranded. Audi quietly repaired it, though it was long out of warranty. Turns out this is a common problem that they have managed to keep relatively quiet.

[sc_rufctr]

VW did something they should not have done. End of story... Why is this even being discussed?

[Daves911L]

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

VW did something they should not have done. End of story... Why is this even being discussed?

Because thats what modern people do on internet forums. Discuss things they know little about, over which they have no control, and which rarely if ever have any direct effect on them. 50 years ago we just played bridge with the neighbors.

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Brawndo starts shipping in 2 weeks.

[speeder]

Originally Posted by patz

I guess none of you ever coughed up a lung back in the 60s during "recess" and couldn't see the mountains in the Summer from anywhere in SmelLA?

Are the smog rules tough? Yes, are they still needed? Yes.

How many Pelican names do you have here anyways??

[BGCarrera32]

Originally Posted by gacook

Alternatively, has this scandal not proven that EPA's testing is "broken?" If VW was able to cheat the test all these years simply through software, does that not signal a failure within EPA and their analysis?

This is the first sensible comment I've read on this forum in a month.

[Evans, Marv]

One of my first reactions was "Wow, what arrogance!"

[jyl]

If you complain that EPA testing methods are too easily fooled, then you must want EPA to load up auto companies with more and more onerous, expensive and burdensome certification testing protocols. Then you'll complain about that.

[BeyGon]

Originally Posted by gtc

You don't think that 11 million vehicles emitting up to 40 times the legal NOx limit is worth worrying about???


The way they defeat the test is to reduce the fuel flow rate. So in real world driving, not only are you polluting more, you're also getting worse mileage than advertised.

Not the case, they get very good mileage, it's hard to fake those real world numbers. You are getting better mileage than if the computers are corrected. Correct the computers, the mileage goes down, burn more gas, discharge more pollutants.
I love our VW Golf Diesel.

[Arizona_928]

Originally Posted by 1990C4S

A great engine? Really? Have you ever googled the current litany of problems they had before this issue cropped up? Check out the Passat exploding turbo....Some diesel engines are great (and the VW ALH was one of them), but their current engines are a LONG way from great.

I have both and even though I love the ALH, the 2.0 CR is everything that engine is not...

So I guess the argument that should made is if you remove all emissions items from a turbo charged CR engine, will you pollute less by the amount of fuel you saved from being consumed vs what actually comes out of the tail pipe?

[Holger]

Nope, dont care at all.
I am sure all makes do this or similar tricks.

Do you really think ANY vehicle out there consumes the advertised gas/diesel? Not a single one.

The new Passat and Touran are on my shopping list for the next months.