I think the issue here is that marriage isn't inherently bad but it's been made to be bad due to the intervention of our legal system. Marriage worked fine for decades in America and centuries in western culture in general before the American legal system completely destroyed it.

THAT is the issue. It's a fixable problem but nobody has the will or interest to do so.

The problem is that in order to fix the problem (as I see it) one would have to do a few things:

1. Incentivize people to stay together and work out their differences, get through tough times and stick up for one another rather than just enabling "cut-and-run" (and "take whatever you can on your way out the door") as the societal expectation.

2. Revamp child support so it's actually for CHILDREN. In other words, put some accountability mechanisms in place. When I go to use my FSA debit card for a doctor's visit, I can be (and have been) challenged by the plan provider for additional backup to ensure it complies with IRS guidelines for what's allowed to be paid pre-tax. Why not the same thing for child support? Why not require expenditures of child support money to be audit-able (i.e. it has to be for kids' clothes, food, care or whatever that cannot be used for any other purpose). Saying "I need a $60,000 SUV 'for the kids' when they might see the inside of it once a month" or "I need a new condo for the kids" is overreaching and bogus and it should be called out as such. Instead former spouses pay a fortune to the point of being unduly burdened to cover the cost of such overreaches and misappropriations exercised with impunity because it's "for the children" (hogwash). They can restrict purchases made with an EBT card, why not child support money?

3. Alimony reform. Okay "liberated women". You're liberated and equal as you should be. You want out, fine. Stand on your own two feet. No more lifetime alimony. Hell, no alimony at all. You want out, you take what's yours, half of what's shared and be on your way. Good luck.

4. Real "father's rights" in child custody. 50/50 should be the default go-to - not "mom always gets custody and the father gets every other weekend if he's lucky". I know way too many people that sunk tens of thousands into trying to get valuable time with their kids (because they genuinely cared about them) only to be treated as insignificant and irrelevant by our system. It is still EXTREMELY archaic and anti-male. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying or misinformed.

5. Go after the deadbeats. For real. There are some real scumbag parents who should be called out and shamed for failing their obligations to their children. No problem with that. The problem is now the presumption is that ALL people (especially men) are scumbags and "deadbeats" even when they're not, so many "live down to expectations" and see their role as unimportant and irrelevant. When you're told by our society that you don't matter, is it any wonder why so many men stop caring and don't?

6. Maybe allow "lite" marriages like civil unions where people have a legal status, are assumed beneficiaries, can make health care decisions for each other, get a tax break, etc. but retain independent control of certain assets, retirement accounts, etc. Heck, a lot of this (all of it?) can be done now with powers of attorney and the like, but having it set up as a formalized process that's streamlined and simpler would help I think - being "joined" with minimal risk of financial exposure would be a big attractant.

7. EDUCATION! Too many people (women) want weddings, not marriages. As soon as things get difficult, they bail. What's the incentive for them to stay (see #1 above)? They're going to get a financial windfall usually, sometimes a free house, free income for the rest of their life, etc. Take those things away and educate them that marriage is supposed to be for keeps, not "...'til inconvenience doth us part". This can and should be a societal expectation.

Really it comes down to two simple things: incentivizing "togetherness" (and disincentivizing divorce / separation), minimizing risk of loss if things do fall apart so people aren't "trapped".

It'll never happen though - the lawyers write the laws and they (or their friends part of the good-ole-boy-lawyers-club) make beaucoup bucks off the system the way it is now. No politician is going to risk losing the "female vote" by suggesting alimony reform (women love them free checks every month!) so the problem persists...

I could go on and on (and have) but those are some suggestions. I find the destruction of marriage by our enlightened system to be tragic. Once upon a time (my parents' / grandparents' generations and prior) it was a wonderful thing to be celebrated. It had some problems but they were over-reacted to and over-legislated to the point where it destroyed the thing it was trying to save. The medicine killed the patient. Now it's just a liability and you can do everything outside of the obligation, rendering it totally unnecessary. It's kind of sad - a cultural loss.

I'm not a real big fan of marriage in the modern context of America / western culture if you can't figure it out - I've seen it end up working out badly for too many people close to me.

That is really well written, PoP.

If you find the right girl and get married then all will be well.

The problem is finding the right girl.

An "ultimatum" is not life or death... if you really don't want to get married (and have healthy self esteem) you are free to walk away.

I don't have a problem with women but most ladies around my age have "issues" that they haven't dealt with.
... And I absolutely refuse to clean up anyone else's mess.

I've been single for about 14 years and I've had a few opportunities to re partner.

And somehow and I really don't know why their "motivation" seems to improve once they see my house. :rolleyes:

He's practicing for your book.

is it really understandable though?

why do some women just expect to be married if they put in a few years with you? why is the basic expectation marriage? why do they need/want a piece of paper certifying your relationship in a legal sense? why is that important in any sense?

Because they feel that if they 'invest' a lot of years with you, there should be a payback (legal marriage and the legal benefits that go along with it). No woman wants to end up as one that is passed around from man to man without getting anything out of it. Now, if women were out working and earning like men, and not having babies, then this would not apply. But, it does.

Sorry, but most of the failed relationships that I have seen started under questionable circumstances. Sorry, but if your significant other is pushing the "ring or else" ultimatum, the writing is on the wall.

its true, im not interested in having kids, and the women i date are not interested in having kids either. so that takes that out of equation.

i totally understand marriage if you are planning on having a family. then it make sense. id argue to stop pretended in that case then, marriage is a way to legally cover your ass, and provide a larger hurdle to breaking up, in order to keep the couple together to raise the kids. hardly romantic at all if i do say so myself. its a hedge, an 18 year one to raise some kids.

i reject the notion however that a woman being passed around from man to man is somehow worse than a man being passed around from woman to woman. as someone who has lived that lifestyle, i enjoy it very much. i enjoy commited relationships sure, but there is no harm in spending 3 years with her, and 5 with someone else totally different, and 1.5 with someone else for a different reason, and 5 more with someone else. we are different poeple throughout our lives, there is no shame is being with someone for that moment of yourself, and with someone else for a different version of yourself 5-10 years later.

that threat doesn't have to be explicit. it can be implied as well, like motion said, lots of women think they deserve to be married after they put in a few years. thats an unsaid ultimatum the same as a *****y explicitly said ultimatum too.

I've been married 3 times. My wife and I have been together nearly 12 years. I dated LOTS of women in between my marriages (I'm 53 years old and had short 1st and 2nd marriages). I'm glad that you guys who are against marriage and are OK floating from woman to woman enjoy your lifestyle. That's great. I realized a long time ago that I valued having 'history' with one woman far more than the benefits that came with having girlfriend after girlfriend. So, I think its different things for different people. My wife and I are like one person after all these years. I don't have to worry about her running off. That's a nice feeling. Also, when you get into your later years, the money issue becomes less of an issue. At this point, I could care less about money. I need some for basic living comforts, but anything else I have is just gravy.

again ... you dont need to be married for that to be a thing.

You're not getting it.

Women don't hang around long without a legal commitment. Very few will, anyway.

I married at 21, she was 20. Been at it for almost 44 "great" years. Pick it, stick it, stay with it. I could have done worse as she could have, but it's been a good time.

and you wonder why some of us are against marriage. lol. so blackmail is the only tool they have. and you guys are happy to be victims of it? if you want to see me tomorrow, you have to spend your life with me? hahaha, what fool would fall for that?

thats not defending marriage, thats making it the punchline us unmarried guys think it already is.

why do women think they deserve a legal relationship after a few years? **** that, thats a stupid deal any way you cut it. thats an insane expectation.

PoP, post 41 is written so much better than the article in the OP. That dreck in the link in the OP was practically unreadable.

es Verdat

CP, I see why you are single.

I would agree 100% for the marriages that don't make it past a few years, but not for those I've witnessed (a bunch) which lasted 20-30 years before the female ended it.
You guys who have married "right" are lucky IMO....think about all the ones you threw back....and the guy who's gonna end up with them if we're all supposed to be married :D.

I keed of course, but there is some logic going on behind it....

Some folks should, some should not...it's a crapshoot at best ;)

Some of the best things in life are a "trick".

When my wife and I met I was a broke construction worker without a dollar to my name, she had plenty of money and was just about to graduate from college. She helped motivate me to go back to school and finish my engineering degree, and supported our family so I could take 19-21 hours per semester to get done. She loved me as an absolute nobody, and helped me to realize my potential. Had we never met I would probably still be working construction. Just to provide a counterpoint to all the bitterness here, she is as much a part of my success as I am. We are a team in all things, it's a wonderful dynamic.