Yet another Audi question-Allroad 2.7
 

My daughter is need of a college car. She wants 4wd, and we've been searching for Subies. There is a local dealership that I've worked with before that does salvage highish end cars-lots of hail repairs, and flood cars. Reputable work, we bought an A8 there. So, they have an Allroad 2.7 with 75k on it for $6,000. Seems like a lot of car for the money. However, the air suspension scares me, and I know nothing about the 2.7. So, throwing it out to braintrust...SmileWavy

Flooded 2.7T (twin turbos, 5v-heads, quattro, slushbox?) *with air suspension*. What can possibly go wrong?

The torque converter of ZF5HP19, turbos, leaky valve covers, the suspension...of the top of my head. Probably much more.

This wouldn't be my first choice for a college car. Both the 2.7 and Allroad are maintenance hogs (gotta keep on top of it or things go south and get expensive quickly...). If you're going to go used Audi, I recommend finding a non-turbo motor.

A well-vetted Subaru would be a better choice for longevity/lack of trouble.

Might as well buy her a land rover or a old jaguar if you are considering a car like that. The two posts above me summarize everything perfectly.

Have fun finding one without transmission issues.

Don't come here for advice on an Audi. Most of it will be negative and most of it will be from people that have little, or no, actual ownership experience.

There are no absolutes, look at each car individually. A Subaru isn't automatically better/more reliable than an Audi. My kid recently went from a fairly nice Audi S8 to a rolling turd of a Subaru (WRX Sti) and the difference in build quality and reliability/longevity is astonishing. The Subie was more money, too, as every dumbass that owns one thinks it's made of solid gold. In my experience, there are few people more clueless about their cars than Subaru owners and that is reflected in the (lack of) care they give the cars. The dealers suck pretty bad, too.

Good luck,
JR

Ha...Beep luckily is the real deal.

Agree on Subies, particularly the WRX's. My son has one, nice enough car but yeah, if stepping out of an S8 you'd be majorly disappointed. His at least wasn't Cobb'd to death.

I'm ok with Audi, our A8 has been a normally reliable car and is a very nice combo of lux and sport. I just don't have any 2.7t knowledge at all. Will likely stay away from this one, it was just very intriguing at the price.

I'm going to inflict enough pain on myself, buying a sl600 with a pano roof if it passes the ppi that's ongoing as we speak.

I've had 4 Audi's with turbos, including the 2.7. Zero issues.

I haven't had an All-Road, but my brother in-law had one. Also zero issues.

My kid's worthless Subie wasn't modified to the hilt. It was largely stock when he got it. The lack of quality comes from the cheap, tin-can construction. It has a lot of faults, that Subaru seems to duck successfully. The worst one is the fuel leak in cold weather, under the intake manifold. I'm talking a puddle of raw gas. A bit of a pain in the ass to fix. You'd think there'd be a recall, but no...

It's also on it's second engine. And, this is the nicest one we could find after a multi-month search.

JR

For college... Subaru

my wrx has 116k on it and has never been to a mechanic. Same with the Sti I put 70k miles on. None of these or your anecdotes prove much.


The 2.7tt all road is not a low maintance car, or particularly reliable there is almost universal consensus. Used Subaru's arnt particularly compelling mostly because their high resale. The 2.7tt audi resale is terrible. The market has spoken about the desirability of these as used cars


intended as humor of course:
Everything You Want To Know About The Audi Allroad 2.7T In About 60 Seconds

wait did I miss this car is salvage titled too, as in maybe hit hard or flooded? Yikes.


Maybe she would be interested in an rx8 as well :)

Yes, but A8/S8 have alu body with N/A engine and 5HP24 tranny . 2.7T is a A6 steel body with V6 and two tiny turbos buried underneath and 5HP19 tranny. A8/S8 is a flagship. 2.7t is a grocery getter pimped to hilt with tech stuff that quits working when warranty is gone.

2.7 turbochargers are known weak spot, so are 5HP19 torque converter oil seals. I do not know much about air suspension, but those cars are maintenance hogs even when not submerged under water.

We had a 2.7 twin Allroad from like 2003 to 2006. It was mostly issue free, but a word of warning, you need an Audi familiar shop to work on them. Most repairs start with "remove the lock carrier" or in simpler terms "remove the front of the car."

If you look up some of Jeff Higgins posts he shows in great detailed pictures on how to do this. It's not something most repair shops would be interested in doing.

I have one, a six speed.

It hasn't been unreliable per se, but when it does need maintenance it is insanely time consuming and complex.

Multiple different types of fasteners, difficult to reach or even see what should be simple maintenance items like the clutch slave cylinder. Oil changes are bizarrely time intensive because of the skid plate. The serpentine belt requires bumper and rad removal.

I've replaced both front air bags without *too* much effort. Used aftermarket parts. Turbos have been good but I've developed a wicked oil leak which I am not looking forward to figuring out.

No transmission issues because of the six speed, but the throw it bearing did fail prematurely.

I ***** about maintenance all of the time, but it's a nice car to drive.

You misunderstood my posts. Don't consider the S8 in that one post the reference point for my suggestions. I've owned more than a dozen Audis, including lowly grocery getter Audis. I've owned an Audi with the dreaded 2.7 V6 twin turbo motor. It had exactly zero issues, before and after the warranty expired.

These threads are pointless. I think I should quit reading them, or responding.

JR

get the subie, much better choice, way less headaches and cost.

Myself and my wife have owned 5 Audi's, I currently drive a 2013 A4 2.0L turbo sport Quattro, love it but only 36K miles. My wife now drives a 2015 Subaru Impreza.

I love Audi's But on this one: RUN!!!!

If you get a Subaru, make sure it's not a candidate for leaking head gaskets or oil consumption. Some trouble spots for Subaru as well.

I had an allroad from 55000-75000 miles that accrued $18K in receipts from various shops in 1.5 years. Soon as the warrant was up I ditched it next day!
My issues were:
Torque converter
airbags
electrical
airbags again!
What I was nervous about was the trans still had not broke and the turbos were original.
I loved that piece of crap! couldn't afford it, Who can?
I'l love to fine one with 6 speed and coil overs. I feel I could afford to drive it now.

Lol the Internet rarely reaches such a consensus

Yeah, I admit that I was trolling a bit, but it is the consensus that I expected. The car is most likely a hail car (we had a storm last summer that created a "flood" of hail cars) but even so...yeah.

Horrible cars to hand to your loved ones:

-Air ride suspension breaks
-Valve cover gaskets leak
-Crankshaft seals leak
-Turbochargers leak
-On board computer on the dash goes bad
-Control arm bushings wear out
-Torque converters go bad
-Ignition coils and spark plugs never ending battle


All around 75k range :D

Not to mention 75k is major service including timing belt job. T-belt job is not easy for novice diyers heck even first time doers who have been wrenching for a while.

BUT,

When working all great, they are delight to drive.

I owned multiple of them, and make living fixing these cars.

Have always wished the Allroad 4.2 had a better reputation too:(

I'd buy a Subaru Outback wagon on its last dying breath before I was given any Audi product, factor that by 10 for an All-Road. But, since you are looking for a car for a kid in college, I remember pretty much walking or riding a bike in my college days so the Audi might fit the bill.

I'll also agree with JR on this post. Trying to find positive Audi advice on this board is difficult. That said, I've owned one or more Audi's as long as I've been driving (Where do you think that "fanAUDIcal" thing comes from?) and like to think I know a thing or two about the brand (or at least I used to - newest one in the garage is a 2002 - first one was a '76 Fox). I do all my own maintenance.

I think Audi build quality runs rings around Subaru (I've owned one of those, too - never again). The big issue with Audi, in my opinion, is the need for maintenance and willingness to address things as soon as they come up. Mine have all been fantastic cars when treated well. I've seen lots of Subarus run into the ground by clueless owners too - it just takes longer because I think they are more tolerant of poor maintenance.

I'll still stand by my original advice in the context of who was going to be driving the car. I wouldn't give a college kid an Allroad with a dual-turbo V6 - that kid has better things to do than fuss on the car every other weekend.

College car: Volvo 850 or V/S70. FWD, naturally aspirated.

The timing belt on this car was just done, not that that matters.

I totally agree with the "address issues" comment. Audi's and MB products are the same. If you immediately fix/maintain stuff, great cars; if not issues snowball in a way that quickly reduces them to moneypit status. And they have a lot of "stuff" to keep working if you're that type of person. College would be local and I have a good Audi indy, but yeah, can't count on a 20 yr old to stay on top of maintenance unless they're a special sort.

right or wrong, it is not just this board that makes a sport out of mocking audi reliability. The dozen or so other websites I frequent do the same. I am sure a lot of it is sensationalized but the 2.7 allroad is sort of a special case, Ive never seen so much universal support for its rep as a maintenance nightmare.

If you love the car fine. But Its pretty high up there as a terrible choice for a "go to college" car. especially a salvage title one. I think the best car for her would be a Camry or accord or similar maybe a small cuv if she is set on awd.

No question, a basic Honda or Toyota is always a better car for a college kid, or anyone on a budget.

Web sites are a fairly poor gauge of reliability. 99% of the owners of a particular brand don't waste their time on internet forums, so you don't get a real picture of what's normal. The ones that do post on the internet are usually DIY guys, usually bought their cars used and often don't have very deep pockets. They ***** a lot, mostly because their ****ty examples have problems and they haven't got the skills to work on them. When's the last time you heard somebody make a post about something bad that didn't happen to them? All you hear is the negative stuff.

I have a lot of friends in the car business, as I was in it myself for a while. The pro mechanics I know just laugh when I tell them people ***** about having to pull the front end off of an Audi to change a cam belt. They can have one off in an hour, and they are happy to do so, as they also work on cars where you can't do that and changing the cam belts is a lot more difficult. Joe-DIY takes all weekend, and then some, to do what they do in less than a day.

I'm friends with the lead technician at the local Audi dealer. He's worked on my cars for over thirty years and has been with Audi for more than that. I sometimes ask him how often he sees some of the things that are touted as 'certain to happen" failures and often he says that he's never seen one. You couldn't count how many cars he's worked on in his career, so the incidence of failures of certain things is nowhere near what the internet would have you believe. It's like the IMS problems Porsche has had. Granted, they happen, but I'll bet they don't happen near as often as you'd think. There are more than 250 people in my local PCA region and most of them have a water-cooled Porsche. I'm pretty active in the region and I don't know a single person that's had an IMS failure.

It's all relative.

JR

NAILED IT. One of the most durable cars ever made, and with (fairly) modern amenities. Plus you can find good ones (albeit high-mileage) for under $2 grand.

I also know a guy who works though not as a tech for a huge audi/volk dealership. A favorite subject to talk about all the V8 chain tensioners that need to be redone on the firewall side of the motors. He would not touch most audi's outside of warentee. To be fair the same is true for most modern bmw or MB.

I completely agree that the cars are not for people not willing to spend big bux, or people wanting to do stuff themselves, or people who buy used cars. You nailed it. That is the definition of a crappy car for some of us.

There is just no way a 2.7 tt all road is a statistically reliable car by any reasonable definition. Way too much literal smoke for there to be no fire. If you go to the lotus forum a small percentage of Esprit owners will swear they are trouble free.

You almost made me spit my coffee all over the keyboard. :D

I remember that sometime mid-1990s, one of the big American car magazines did a group test of the 993 Carrera, Dodge Viper, Ferrari F355, Lotus Esprit, Acura NSX, and maybe Corvette Grand Sport? Anyhow they came up with major flaws for each one. For the Porsche, it was "too predictable" a choice (this was on the heels of the '80s, remember); for the Ferrari, it was way too expensive (nearly double the price of the Carrera); the Viper was difficult to drive fast, the NSX was... hmmm... too subtle? Anyhow I remember that the gripe about the Lotus was that it was "too fragile," even as a brand-new-off-the-showroom-floor car.

It's weird what sticks with you.

I remember that article actually. I wasnt even being snarky, the esprit forum is largely filled with people who are honest about the cars realities. There are a few of them who have either gotten very lucky or are too in lust to see some of the shortcomings.

I think they are lovely cars and probably worth the trouble though!

I've asked my friend about those and he hadn't personally seen any failures with them yet, or at least hadn't had any when I talked to him about it, which was maybe a year ago.

Granted, if you had to change all the chains, guides and what not on one of those motors it would set you back a chunk of change. But, it's all relative, like I said. You could change all of that on an Audi V8 for about half of what a normal belt service cost on my Ferraris every 7 years.

JR

You should look at the C4 chassis A6/100 Avant from 93-98. They are dirt cheap, and use the 2.8 V6. I'm going to PM you with one I happen to know is available.

While the allroad may 'sound' like a good value, it's not. Aside from everyone's favorite problems with the car, that isn't even a good price. Unless it is mechanically exceptional.

Air-ride is a nightmare. Many people convert to steel springs out of frustration.

Most people bash the engine. Yes, many are unreliable. However, if it has been maintained properly they can be fine.

If you like the chassis, an early A6 Avant/wagon with the 2.8 V6 and slushbox (manual only available on sedan in the US) is a good choice. That engine puts a lot less strain on that (bad) transmission. The 3.0 V6 is installed in the 02-04 models, but that engine isn't as reliable from what I hear.

If it's in your range, you could look at the next newer chassis, the A6 Avant from 06-11. Specifically the 06-08 3.2 V6 models. It has a much better 6-spd automatic, the engine is pretty reliable and plenty of power for a cruising/daily car. She may even be able to hook her phone up to the Bluetooth, however those early models did have MMI software issues. You'd want to ensure the firmware received all the updates.

If you're removing the radiator to do it, you're doing it wrong. No need to remove radiator / lock carrier. Slide it forward, yes, but no need to remove.

Great car if the plan is to pay your Audi mechanic's way through college

Thanks for the input and the pm. And yes, MMI is brutal pain. We want bluetooth in the '05 A* but its a pain to do. I miss the "old days" of slapping in a $125 DIN kenwood with bluetooth and siri.

While this board may despise Audi's, I have had many and like the brand. Unfortunately, the Allroad was the worst car I have ever owned. Loved the overall concept but spun a bearing at 49k and had to replace the engine. That was just the start of the problems. I couldn't even begin to list the litany of issues. The odds of having a reliable Allroad are slightly better than winning the lottery.

I work on them for a living . STAY AWAY from a 2.7 allroad .

/\ /\ /\
This is true.
And I really love audi.
Right now I have an Audi a4 1999 v6 avant quattro 5 speed. 160k miles. I gave to my daughter and I find that I drive it more than my truck if I can. It's a great driving car. It needs a thermostat and you can't just plop one in. Ah it's an audi. fine, timing belt job while were in there.