VW TDI 1.9L turbo reliability?

[scottmandue]

Wife wants a new bug (not the newest squished looking one but previous model)

Me, not so much (but babe, wouldn't a golf or rabbit be more practical? Yeah... good luck with that).

They didn't make a lot of them, but they do pop up from time to time.

VW beetle TDI 1.9L turbo.

Maybe a win-win for us, she gets her beetle, I get a diesel

Anyone know of any issues with these cars?

Thanks in advance,

[Esel Mann]

I have the 1.9 TDI in my Jetta (2005.5). I have just over 104,000 miles on it.
Service has been performed at all intervals. While the beetle looks different it does share many aspects with the Jetta.

Thus far 2 issues engine related:

1 - EGR valve has had to be replaced twice thus far. For me it seemed to go out every 35,000 - 40,000 miles. My understanding is it is a design flaw VW allowed to market in order to meet emissions. Something about our diesel here in the states is crappy (despite what we are told) and over time it clogs the EGR valve so that it sticks. I have heard that there is a back-yard "work-around" to stop this from happening.

2 - Intermittent check engine light. Since just before the last service at 100,000 miles the check engine light has come on and the main console reports "emissions workshop". At the service they traced it to an intermittent sensor (I don't recall which one) which does not effect safety or performance and thus recommended waiting until it's no longer intermittent. Well it's no longer intermittent so at next service I am going to have them take care of it.

Non engine related:

1 - Headliner is shot. The fabric has separated from the backing. Do note however I'm in FL and the interior gets so hot one can cook eggs and bacon. I never understood why in this day and age the car companies fail to address proper ventilation to keep interior temps reasonable.

2 - Radio buttons. The rubber coating in the knobs is squishy/slimy. This is the 3rd factory radio which has had the same issue. Again I suspect it has something to do with interior temps.

Overall a good experience with a few nagging issues (above).

[scottmandue]

Thanks Esel!

Also wonder if the engine is at all DIY, like as you say the EGR valve. If it is an reasonable DIY fix I would keep an extra one on hand.

Never worked on a diesel... but that is kinda the point of getting one.. they are supposed to be uber reliable... that and the good mileage.

[porwolf]

On the new TDI diesels, that came from Europe, I recently read a very cautionary assessment: The gist of the German article is that the modern small engine diesels are completely different than the older, slower, long lasting ones. Those have the reputation of being indestructible. The new diesels employ completely different technologies. Their engineering is pushed to the limits with high compression in small spaces and also the new injector technology is marginal. The turbos add extra complexity and risk of failure to the picture. The article warns of big reliability problems down the line and compares the newest crop of much simpler basic gasoline engines as the more solid, less expensive, and more solid choice in the long run.

[scottmandue]

We can't afford new... probably looking at mid-2000 car... I see a 2003 diesel bug on autotrader in my area.

But wife is moving into my house and daughter is going to college in September, so no big purchases this year.

Just planing for the future.

[aigel]

Coworker has one of the vintage you are looking at and no complaints. He mentioned timing belt DIY being easy.

I will check with him this week when I get a chance and give more feedback.

G

[aigel]

Originally Posted by porwolf

On the new TDI diesels, that came from Europe, I recently read a very cautionary assessment: The gist of the German article is that the modern small engine diesels are completely different than the older, slower, long lasting ones. Those have the reputation of being indestructible. The new diesels employ completely different technologies. Their engineering is pushed to the limits with high compression in small spaces and also the new injector technology is marginal. The turbos add extra complexity and risk of failure to the picture. The article warns of big reliability problems down the line and compares the newest crop of much simpler basic gasoline engines as the more solid, less expensive, and more solid choice in the long run.

Link?

I am not buying this one and would like to see their data.

G

[CurtEgerer]

300,000 on my 2004. Replaced a turbo at 200,000. Other than that, just all scheduled maintenance. I do no work on it myself so don't know about DIY. Still worth $6000+ KBB with that mileage

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by scottmandue

We can't afford new... probably looking at mid-2000 car... I see a 2003 diesel bug on autotrader in my area.

But wife is moving into my house and daughter is going to college in September, so no big purchases this year.

Just planing for the future.

2000-2003 are considered the "best" of that era, as they were pre-PD (pompe duesse) injection pumps.

However, it's the lesser of evils. Lots of issues and problems. And they're expensive. Turbos don't last. Carboned-up intakes and EGR systems (not just valve/solenoid). Pumps that go bad from low-sulfur-diesel and they're uber-expensive.

If you don't listen to any other warnings, heed this: stay FAR away from the automatic transmission

I know my advice will bring out all the owners who "have never had problems", but any research on this will turn up an awful lot of problems, fast.

Personally, I think they aren't worth their prices and while they get good fuel economy, it doesn't pencil out.

[porwolf]

Originally Posted by aigel

Link?

I am not buying this one and would like to see their data.

G

This is the place where I read th critical assessments of the new crop of small diesel engines and their limited future. Unfortunately it is in German, which is interesting because those diesel cars are so poular over there. Maybe you can translate it with Google translation service.

Autobauer: Der Siegeszug des Dieselmotors geht zu Ende - Auto - Technologie - Wirtschaftswoche

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by kaisen

2000-2003 are considered the "best" of that era, as they were pre-PD (pompe duesse) injection pumps.

If you don't listen to any other warnings, heed this: stay FAR away from the automatic transmission

Personally, I think they aren't worth their prices and while they get good fuel economy, it doesn't pencil out.

Bummer, my wife is very practical and will not insist on a beetle... but I know she would be all giggles if I showed up with one.

Does the automatic trans the same on the gas model too? Should we only look at a stick?

Was sure looking forward to 45MPG they claim... what MPG does the gas beetle of the same era get?

[yetibone]

The only issues I've run into on older TDI's are, of course, carbon fouled EGR valves, and intake manifolds, occasional failed glow plugs, and glow plug controllers, and the cursory timing belt/coolant pump replacements, which are pretty easy on the Jetta/Golf platform. Beetles are a little harder because of the engine placement in the body makes the right side mount hard to remove. The worst I'd heard of on those cars was one fellow that lost a cam, and lifter buckets because of oil condition (?). I'd venture a guess that it had to do with the different additive package in the current formula Rotella T, and too long of a service interval, but that's just a guess...

On an '05 Passat TDI with a PD injection system (think: DEEtroit Diesel 6-71, exhaust cam operated injectors), I had to replace a head gasket that failed due to a ruptured EGR cooler. It was a pretty straight-forward repair, but required an expensive gasket set, and EGR tube.

Good motors, but like a big Dodge with a Cummins 6BTA, the engines are more reliable than the cars themselves.

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by scottmandue

Bummer, my wife is very practical and will not insist on a beetle... but I know she would be all giggles if I showed up with one.

Does the automatic trans the same on the gas model too? Should we only look at a stick?

Was sure looking forward to 45MPG they claim... what MPG does the gas beetle of the same era get?

Yes, the ZF auto in gas and diesels (code 01M) can be problematic. The rule of thumb is 120K miles +/-. The diesels make a little more torque, so they have a little higher failure rate. The rebuilt units don't seem to last, so most diesel-snobs insist on a NEW VW unit and rebuilt ones bring far less than the originals that are still okay. Resale on the automatics is much less anyway and they get worse fuel economy.

It is my experience that an automatic TDI of that era (ALH engine / 01M auto) is capable of 45 mpg only in the best of circumstances. People claim to get 50 mpg from the sticks. Again, not my personal experience. Figure 38 mpg freeway from the automatics and 42 mpg freeway from the 5 speeds. Still quite good. Hypermiling techniques (and mods) can get you nearer than 45 claim. Maybe the owners here can chime in.

I had a 2003 automatic and a 2001 5 spd, both Jettas.

[johnsjmc]

My wife had a 2000 Jetta TDI 5 speed for years and loved the car. The cam belt is a must as the diesel is an interference design.Bends valves if it breaks .Only engine related failure was a map sensor.Vw covered them up to 7 yrs,and a glow plug (less than $50). The work around for the egr is to turn it off with software .See TDI forums for details but we never had a problem Also heard stay away from the autos. Fuel mileage is fantastic but maybe matched today by a hybrid. The cost of an oil change is higher than a gas engine . The gas engines of the period had some issues but I am not sure what they were. Most expensive repair was an ABS controller which failed and cost about $700

[notfarnow]

For good reliable transportation, I would get a donkey before I ever bought another VW.

And I know many have had great luck with their VWs... good for them. It's an absolute crapshoot though. At least when you buy a used Daewoo, you know what you're getting. You just never know with a VW

[scottmandue]

Thanks for the input guys!

So IF we go for a VW it will be a stick.

My wife is also interested in a hybrid... but that is a whole 'nuther can O worms'.

A mid 2000 beetle runs around $6K, doubt we could touch a hybrid for that.

[kaisen]

Are you using this car to commute from Portland to San Pedro? If so, the hybrid wouldn't be a great idea. Their strength is city driving. Conversly, a diesel's strength is freeway cruising.

The trouble, imho, with both hybrids and turbo diesels is their complexity. Yes, they can be had for $6000, but their repair costs can be double or triple what a relatively simple gas car can be. Coupled with VW's spotty reliability, they can be huge money pits compared to, say, a $6000 Honda Civic.

Let's break it down assuming the "average driver" doing 15,000 miles per year, spilt 50/50 between city and freeway.

Let's look at two $6000 cars:
A 2002 VW Beetle TDI 5 speed is rated 35 city / 44 hwy / 39 combined
A 2002 Honda Civic LX 5 speed is rated 28 city / 36 hwy / 31 combined

At $3.44 gasoline and $3.68 diesel (national average as of 6/25 per eia.gov) then:
VW TDI would use $1400 in diesel annually
Honda Civic would use $1650 in gasoline annually

The VW would save $250 a year, or about $20 each month

That's *IF* diesel stays within 20 cents per gallon.....in the winter months it's typically 50 cents

Over the course of a three year ownership, you'd save a whopping $750. I would bet any amount of money that the average ten year old VW TDI would have $750 greater repair costs over that three years than a ten year old Honda Civic.

So where is the savings?

I'm not advocating a Civic, it was just an easy example

[speeder]

My direct experience with Honda Civics, (family has owned 2), is that almost nothing is needed repair-wise until they get over 100k miles and then some significant maintenance starts to occur. One with 150k miles, (as in your example of 10yrs. x 15k per year), would be due for a new transmission, CV axles and all of the things that every other car consumes. Normal life span of those driveline components.

That's not to knock Hondas, I love them. They are far and away my favorite Japanese cars and I sold them and drove them 30 years ago. I was just telling someone yesterday what great cars they are, IMO. I'd drive one as a DD w/o hesitation. But I'm not so sure that there would be a huge difference in repair costs from a similar age VW, assuming neither car is a "lemon".

[scottmandue]

No, no, no.... I commute to Portland on the big aluminum bird! 1000 miles, $200 to $300, 2 hours.

I commute into Los Angeles 20 miles, 40 miles a day... I currently do this in my 2010 Hyundai Elantra ~30MPG.

Wife is moving to L.A. in September and dragging my old 2005 Elantra that as hit 100K miles. We will be looking to replace it in a year or two. Don't really know how much driving she will be doing once she moves down, depends on what/where she finds work. She would prefer a short commute... she just really wants a beetle... but she will drive anything... she was driving a 1995 Nissan pickup when we married.

[speeder]

We have 2 VW NBs in our family fleet, (both my Mom's), and one before that. My Mom just likes them and she is not real succeptible to hard numbers and logic in car decisions. As with most people, preference over-rules small differences in projected ownership cost w/o a fight. We've had good/normal luck with them, nothing major that I've ever heard about failing. If either of the first two were POS cars, she would not have bought a third.

The trick if you are buying any 10 y.o. used car is to buy one that has already had some major repairs done on the items that wear out with the commensurate miles the vehicle has. Honda or VW or Subaru or Toyota, all the same.