Pelican Parts Forums - How did the tail-end of Baby-Boomers produce such dysfunction?

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Quote:

Originally Posted by fintstone (Post 9126743)

I find the reaction of Millennials (and Gen Xers to some extent) to generational criticism interesting. It reflects much of the "everyone gets an award" mentality that engenders the critique. Expecting wages that are higher than the value of their labor, expecting "free stuff" etc...No attempt to listen or learn from the critique...just excuses. If you want to win an "award" in life, work longer, harder and smarter than the next guy...stop expecting others to pay your bills.

If everyone tells you that you are morbidly obese...you should probably consider some exercise or a diet. At least get on the scales. Arguing that you are are really fit and svelte when you are carrying an extra 150lbs is downright unhealthy. Why are you the last to know? Did you strike out every time you stepped up to the plate in little league and still get a trophy? Are you shocked you are not playing for the Yankees? Do you live much of your life in a video or paintball game...or some other version of an alternate reality? Are you the guy who cannot get his face out of his Iphone long enough to cross the street? Do you live in your Mom's basement? Are you in your mid 20's or older and your parents still help support you? If you were half as good as you think, employers would compete for your labor and you would not need to expect government to force them to hire you and pay you more than your labor is worth in a free market. As you line up to support socialists for President, you show just how broken and lacking in wisdom you are. Face it, many of you are just that

...

intergenerational hatred. racial hatred. religious hatred. hatred of democrats.
hatred of Canadians. did i miss anything?
i give this thread a 9 on the the pompous ass scale.
:)

Quote:

Originally Posted by fintstone (Post 9188476)

Actually no. I told you to join the military and get the GI Bill.

I'm 51, born in late 1964, so a baby boomer by 9 weeks...

The "new" GI Bill didn't exist when I entered the Army six days after I turned 18. Instead, we had "ultra-Veap", Veteran's Educational Assistance Program.

$100 per month was deducted from my $562 monthly pay for 27 months. So, after 27 months (of a three year enlistment) I had contributed $2,700. When I ETS'd and started college, the VA sent me a check for $744.45 per month, every month that I was enrolled in school. During the summers, when I got no VA check, I worked as many hours as possible to save up for Fall tuition. (I had to front the money myself and then pay myself back throughout the semester with my VA checks.)

I am quite puzzled by this whole millennial "college tuition debt time bomb" furor.

So, if a Millennial racks up "$100,000" in undergrad debt, and then repays it over three years, that's $33,333 per year that they need to pay back. At 6% interest, that's $3,042 per month.

So what's the difference between my three years of slave labor (Army) to pay for four years of college, and a millennial going to college for four years and then working for three years to pay for the four years of college???

Seven years is seven years.

I just don't get the angst over having to work for a few years to pay for your education/job training...

Yes, I remember VEAP well. I paid in the $2700 and never used it. It sucked compared to what came before and what came afterwards (although still provided opportunity to those who made the effort). The current GI Bill is much, much better.

Yes, I don't get it either (the millennial whine). Most of us sacrificed to go to school.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CalPersFatCat (Post 9189098)

Fresh out of college will not get you a job where you can pay 30k a year, have a car and a house, and live a decent quality of life.

Personally I don't get where this 100k of debt comes from. My undergrad was 25k. Philosophy. I didn't want to be a lawyer or professor, so I knew the next stage in my education would be in a different discipline.

My MBA will be 50, but I'll make that back by the time I graduate because of the co-op. Even if I didn't have co-op, the employability would allow me to pay back the debt.

Who is getting 100k in debt without it leading to a good job? Who are these people?

Quote:

Originally Posted by creaturecat (Post 9188913)

intergenerational hatred. racial hatred. religious hatred. hatred of democrats.
hatred of Canadians. did i miss anything?
i give this thread a 9 on the the pompous ass scale.
:)

Amazing that you can whine in the same key as the millennials. No one hates kids (most of us have our own). No one hates Canadians (Cocker gets much worse than JD here...of course he deserves it)...most folks just don't care for whiny folks who blame their troubles on people they don't even know. specially when they start making excuses for losing so early I the game...and start demanding trophies for games they have not won.

Manning-up goes a long way...or at least it used to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JD159 (Post 9189123)

Fresh out of college will not get you a job where you can pay 30k a year, have a car and a house, and live a decent quality of life.

Have a car??? A house??? Decent quality of life???? :D

No. For the first three years after college, you work your "job" 40 hours per week, you work your part time job another 20 hours per week, you live in a house with roommates, and you drive the same crappy car that got you through college.

Or I guess you could choose to accept money from mommy and daddy to pay for your college tuition or for living expenses. Or both...

"Decent quality of life..." Good Lord... Are you serious?

You've just solidified the "lazy millennial" stereotype.

...Do you have any idea what my "quality of life" was for the thirty months that I was stationed at the National Training Center in the middle of the Mojave Desert??? And my duty was a cakewalk compared to the American Fighting Men who served and fought in the Mideast during wartime over the last several years...

BTW, I made $56k my first year out of college, not because of a high salary or high hourly wage. It was because I moved 2,000 miles away from home for my first job and because I worked a LOT of hours. FYI, It's not the end of the world to work long hours...

Quote:

Originally Posted by fintstone (Post 9189114)

Ultra Veap had a $12,000 "kicker" for certain occupational specialties. I was lucky to get that...

But I have to admit, years later when I found out the terms of "The New GI Bill", I almost pooped my pants. It really was an amazing package.

Most first out of college jobs are not 56k. Just FYI. The majority are making less than 50k.

You make in the 40's, and you are not repaying 33k a year in loans, while living on your own.

I'll let the old folk continue and bow out of this discussion.

Jesus Christ I'm finding myself totally agreeing with Fat Cat. And I'm not a Boomer. I'm an Exer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JD159 (Post 9189182)

Most first out of college jobs are not 56k. Just FYI. The majority are making less than 50k.

You make in the 40's, and you are not repaying 33k a year in loans, while living on your own.

They are if you take the right major. It is all about choices.

CAlPers had 4 years experience before he went to college.

I think I worked close to 15 years before breaking $12K a year...and had a wife and two kids to feed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JD159 (Post 9189123)

...Who is getting 100k in debt without it leading to a good job? Who are these people?

Some call them millennials. Others use the term "snowflake"...or just "entitled." They are the guys who have worked for a couple years and feel equipped to make the case that everyone before them got some sort of free ride. They run up huge debt and want others...who pay their own bills to bail them out.

They think they are the only ones who have things a little tough because life is not handed to them on a silver platter. They have no idea what it is like to be hungry...or to have known mortgage or auto interest rates of close to 20%. They did not lose the home they spent much of their life working to buy...because housing values dropped over 50% in a few months (twice in my lifetime...to me)...and their job disappeared at the same time.

They have never known gas lines/rationing or had gas prices more than double. They cannot even imagine gas lines for blocks, even miles and the pump being out before you reach the pump...or having to walk the 6 or 8 miles to work because the pump simply had no gas.

They have no idea what it is like to be approaching draft age and wondering what their chance of survival is... and few have/will ever watch TV news at night and wonder if the body bags they see each night are their neighbor or father, son or brother. They have not gone through nuclear sheltering drills at school because the Soviets were putting nuclear weapons just off the coast in Cuba. They have not lined up in the Fulda Gap waiting for the Russian tanks to roll over the hill.

They don't remember life when rheumatic fever or polio crippled other kids in school, second hand smoke everywhere, or finding out about AIDS...after being sexually active for years when "protection@ was only about pregnancy.

They did not find out their President was paying an intern with tax dollars to give him a blow job in the Oval Office (the President was typically the most respected man in America before that) in an era where many folks didn't even know what oral sex was.

They have not experienced growing up and preparing for a low tech world and coming of age where their skills were practically useless...or lose the company retirement you worked your whole life to earn. The silly twits chose useless education and the accompanying debt (with no thought of employment afterwards or repaying that debt). Now they cry about automation taking the jobs that they already refuse to do.

They think times are harder for them than anyone who came before. Certainly not so far... When it does, I hope they are able to cope with it as well as those who came before them. So far, I am not overly optimistic...but who knows? Maybe they will mature in their 30s. They do have a good, but very small set of leaders to start with. Those who were toughened and tested in Iraq and Afghanistan. Maybe they can turn things around.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fintstone (Post 9189297)

I appreciate the detailed post and information. I will agree with you that many people do not appreciate what they have. My parents, and relatives, for the most part, did not experience what you describe. I don't know anybody with that much student debt either.

Perhaps there is a greater difference between our particular locations than I thought. Could that have something to do with this? Does not knowing these things make you an entitled spoiled brat?

I was fired from my internship for writing a proposal for a more flexible dress code â€” Ask a Manager

Quote:

I was able to get a summer internship at a company that does work in the industry I want to work in after I graduate. Even though the division I was hired to work in doesn’t deal with clients or customers, there still was a very strict dress code. I felt the dress code was overly strict but I wasn’t going to say anything, until I noticed one of the workers always wore flat shoes that were made from a fabric other than leather, or running shoes, even though both of these things were contrary to the dress code.

I spoke with my manager about being allowed some leeway under the dress code and was told this was not possible, despite the other person being allowed to do it. I soon found out that many of the other interns felt the same way, and the ones who asked their managers about it were told the same thing as me. We decided to write a proposal stating why we should be allowed someone leeway under the dress code. We accompanied the proposal with a petition, signed by all of the interns (except for one who declined to sign it) and gave it to our managers to consider. Our proposal requested that we also be allowed to wear running shoes and non leather flats, as well as sandals (not flip-flops though) and other non-dress shoes that would fit under a more business casual dress code. It was mostly about the footwear, but we also incorporated a request that we not have to wear suits and/or blazers in favor of a more casual, but still professional dress code.

The next day, all of us who signed the petition were called into a meeting where we thought our proposal would be discussed. Instead, we were informed that due to our “unprofessional” behavior, we were being let go from our internships. We were told to hand in our ID badges and to gather our things and leave the property ASAP.

We were shocked. The proposal was written professionally like examples I have learned about in school, and our arguments were thought out and well-reasoned. We weren’t even given a chance to discuss it. The worst part is that just before the meeting ended, one of the managers told us that the worker who was allowed to disobey the dress code was a former soldier who lost her leg and was therefore given permission to wear whatever kind of shoes she could walk in. You can’t even tell, and if we had known about this we would have factored it into our argument.

I have never had a job before (I’ve always focused on school) and I was hoping to gain some experience before I graduate next year. I feel my dismissal was unfair and would like to ask them to reconsider but I’m not sure the best way to go about it. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Oooooohhhh.

Firing the whole group of you was a pretty extreme reaction, but I can understand why they were highly annoyed.

Y’all were pretty out of line. You were interns there — basically guests for the summer. Their rules are their rules. This is like being a houseguest and presenting your host with a signed petition (!) to change their rules about cleaning up after yourself. You just don’t have the standing to do that.

To be clear, that doesn’t mean that you need to suck up any and every condition of an internship. You don’t. But this wasn’t something like asking you to do unsafe work or work unreasonable hours; this was asking you to abide by what sounds like a very common and reasonable professional dress code.

They presumably have that dress code because, rightly or wrongly, they’ve determined that it’s in their best interest. Sometimes these sorts of dress codes make sense (like when you’re dealing with clients who expect a certain image). Other times they don’t. But you really, really don’t have standing as interns to push back on it in such an aggressive way. And beyond standing, you don’t have enough knowledge as interns to push back so aggressively — knowledge of their context, their clients, and their culture.

What you could have done was to say, “Would you talk to us about the dress code and explain why it’s important? We’re sure we’ll run into this again in future jobs, but coming from the more casual environment of school, it’s not intuitive to us why so many businesses have formal dress codes. We’d appreciate getting a better understanding.”

But instead, you assumed you knew better (despite being in a position where the whole point is that you don’t have experience and are there to learn) and then went about it in a pretty aggressive way. A petition is … well, it’s not something you typically see at work. It signals that you think that if you get enough signatures, your company will feel pressured to act, and that’s just not how this stuff works. A company is not going to change its dress code because its interns sign a petition.

Honestly, if my summer interns banded together and this was what they decided to take on, I’d have some serious questions about their judgment and their priorities. I wouldn’t fire you for it … but I would not be impressed and we would be having a very stern conversation in which I explained the above.

The fact that they did fire all of you for it makes me wonder if there were other issues too and this pushed them over the edge. Were you getting good feedback before this, or had you noticed your manager trying to rein you in on other things? If there were other issues, I can more easily understand them just throwing up their hands and being finished with the whole thing.

In any case, I don’t think you can ask them to reconsider. What’s done is done. But it would be smart to write a letter to your manager explaining that you’ve learned from the situation and that you appreciate the opportunity they gave you and are sorry that you squandered it. They’re not likely to invite you back, but a note like that will probably soften them up a little and will mean that they don’t think so witheringly of you in the future.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JD159 (Post 9189182)

I made $21.76 per hour right out of college. *** Notice that I remember the EXACT amount??? *** The reason that I remember the exact amount is because I worked for pennies during my three year enlistment in the Army and at my part time jobs during college. (full time hours during the summers). I saved my first pay stub.

$21.76 per hour is $45k, "just FYI". :D The extra $11k was from working extra hours.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CalPersFatCat (Post 9189674)

Not everyone gets pay for working extra hours.

45k a year is more than reasonable after college.

So you say you made 56k. How much do you estimate you had, after taxes? Would it have been enough to pay 33k a year in student loans?

You ridiculed me for my comment regarding quality of life while paying 33k a year in loan debt.

Let's say your salaried and making 50k a year. No overtime.

In Canada, you would take home about 41k. That leaves you 8k to pay for life. Rent, transportation, food and some clothes to wear to work. Would you want that to be your kid?

This is assuming you land a 50k gig, which is pretty good around here. Most of the jobs are in or around Toronto, so transportation is expensive.

Seems like one would have to make at least $60k to even come close to paying off $33k in loans per year and try to live when you consider takes. $60k after takes is more like $49k, subtract out $33k and you're left with ~$16k to live 12 months on. Even sharing a room that would be tough in most states.
Maybe if you can live with M&D, but then they would probably just start a thread complaining how their kids came back after college:)

Quote:

Originally Posted by biosurfer1 (Post 9189724)

Exactly...

College/university is becoming a necessity. Now a masters is the new degree. College/university is like graduating highschool now.

college/university is NOT a necessity. I wish more people would understand this.