...

intergenerational hatred. racial hatred. religious hatred. hatred of democrats.
hatred of Canadians. did i miss anything?
i give this thread a 9 on the the pompous ass scale.
:)

I'm 51, born in late 1964, so a baby boomer by 9 weeks...

The "new" GI Bill didn't exist when I entered the Army six days after I turned 18. Instead, we had "ultra-Veap", Veteran's Educational Assistance Program.

$100 per month was deducted from my $562 monthly pay for 27 months. So, after 27 months (of a three year enlistment) I had contributed $2,700. When I ETS'd and started college, the VA sent me a check for $744.45 per month, every month that I was enrolled in school. During the summers, when I got no VA check, I worked as many hours as possible to save up for Fall tuition. (I had to front the money myself and then pay myself back throughout the semester with my VA checks.)

I am quite puzzled by this whole millennial "college tuition debt time bomb" furor.

So, if a Millennial racks up "$100,000" in undergrad debt, and then repays it over three years, that's $33,333 per year that they need to pay back. At 6% interest, that's $3,042 per month.

So what's the difference between my three years of slave labor (Army) to pay for four years of college, and a millennial going to college for four years and then working for three years to pay for the four years of college???

Seven years is seven years.

I just don't get the angst over having to work for a few years to pay for your education/job training...

Yes, I remember VEAP well. I paid in the $2700 and never used it. It sucked compared to what came before and what came afterwards (although still provided opportunity to those who made the effort). The current GI Bill is much, much better.

Yes, I don't get it either (the millennial whine). Most of us sacrificed to go to school.

Fresh out of college will not get you a job where you can pay 30k a year, have a car and a house, and live a decent quality of life.

Personally I don't get where this 100k of debt comes from. My undergrad was 25k. Philosophy. I didn't want to be a lawyer or professor, so I knew the next stage in my education would be in a different discipline.

My MBA will be 50, but I'll make that back by the time I graduate because of the co-op. Even if I didn't have co-op, the employability would allow me to pay back the debt.

Who is getting 100k in debt without it leading to a good job? Who are these people?

Amazing that you can whine in the same key as the millennials. No one hates kids (most of us have our own). No one hates Canadians (Cocker gets much worse than JD here...of course he deserves it)...most folks just don't care for whiny folks who blame their troubles on people they don't even know. specially when they start making excuses for losing so early I the game...and start demanding trophies for games they have not won.

Manning-up goes a long way...or at least it used to.

Have a car??? A house??? Decent quality of life???? :D

No. For the first three years after college, you work your "job" 40 hours per week, you work your part time job another 20 hours per week, you live in a house with roommates, and you drive the same crappy car that got you through college.

Or I guess you could choose to accept money from mommy and daddy to pay for your college tuition or for living expenses. Or both...

"Decent quality of life..." Good Lord... Are you serious?

You've just solidified the "lazy millennial" stereotype.

...Do you have any idea what my "quality of life" was for the thirty months that I was stationed at the National Training Center in the middle of the Mojave Desert??? And my duty was a cakewalk compared to the American Fighting Men who served and fought in the Mideast during wartime over the last several years...

BTW, I made $56k my first year out of college, not because of a high salary or high hourly wage. It was because I moved 2,000 miles away from home for my first job and because I worked a LOT of hours. FYI, It's not the end of the world to work long hours...

Ultra Veap had a $12,000 "kicker" for certain occupational specialties. I was lucky to get that...

But I have to admit, years later when I found out the terms of "The New GI Bill", I almost pooped my pants. It really was an amazing package.

Most first out of college jobs are not 56k. Just FYI. The majority are making less than 50k.

You make in the 40's, and you are not repaying 33k a year in loans, while living on your own.

I'll let the old folk continue and bow out of this discussion.

Jesus Christ I'm finding myself totally agreeing with Fat Cat. And I'm not a Boomer. I'm an Exer.

They are if you take the right major. It is all about choices.

CAlPers had 4 years experience before he went to college.

I think I worked close to 15 years before breaking $12K a year...and had a wife and two kids to feed.

Some call them millennials. Others use the term "snowflake"...or just "entitled." They are the guys who have worked for a couple years and feel equipped to make the case that everyone before them got some sort of free ride. They run up huge debt and want others...who pay their own bills to bail them out.

They think they are the only ones who have things a little tough because life is not handed to them on a silver platter. They have no idea what it is like to be hungry...or to have known mortgage or auto interest rates of close to 20%. They did not lose the home they spent much of their life working to buy...because housing values dropped over 50% in a few months (twice in my lifetime...to me)...and their job disappeared at the same time.

They have never known gas lines/rationing or had gas prices more than double. They cannot even imagine gas lines for blocks, even miles and the pump being out before you reach the pump...or having to walk the 6 or 8 miles to work because the pump simply had no gas.

They have no idea what it is like to be approaching draft age and wondering what their chance of survival is... and few have/will ever watch TV news at night and wonder if the body bags they see each night are their neighbor or father, son or brother. They have not gone through nuclear sheltering drills at school because the Soviets were putting nuclear weapons just off the coast in Cuba. They have not lined up in the Fulda Gap waiting for the Russian tanks to roll over the hill.

They don't remember life when rheumatic fever or polio crippled other kids in school, second hand smoke everywhere, or finding out about AIDS...after being sexually active for years when "protection@ was only about pregnancy.

They did not find out their President was paying an intern with tax dollars to give him a blow job in the Oval Office (the President was typically the most respected man in America before that) in an era where many folks didn't even know what oral sex was.

They have not experienced growing up and preparing for a low tech world and coming of age where their skills were practically useless...or lose the company retirement you worked your whole life to earn. The silly twits chose useless education and the accompanying debt (with no thought of employment afterwards or repaying that debt). Now they cry about automation taking the jobs that they already refuse to do.

They think times are harder for them than anyone who came before. Certainly not so far... When it does, I hope they are able to cope with it as well as those who came before them. So far, I am not overly optimistic...but who knows? Maybe they will mature in their 30s. They do have a good, but very small set of leaders to start with. Those who were toughened and tested in Iraq and Afghanistan. Maybe they can turn things around.

I appreciate the detailed post and information. I will agree with you that many people do not appreciate what they have. My parents, and relatives, for the most part, did not experience what you describe. I don't know anybody with that much student debt either.

Perhaps there is a greater difference between our particular locations than I thought. Could that have something to do with this? Does not knowing these things make you an entitled spoiled brat?

I was fired from my internship for writing a proposal for a more flexible dress code — Ask a Manager

I made $21.76 per hour right out of college. *** Notice that I remember the EXACT amount??? *** The reason that I remember the exact amount is because I worked for pennies during my three year enlistment in the Army and at my part time jobs during college. (full time hours during the summers). I saved my first pay stub.


$21.76 per hour is $45k, "just FYI". :D The extra $11k was from working extra hours.

Not everyone gets pay for working extra hours.

45k a year is more than reasonable after college.

So you say you made 56k. How much do you estimate you had, after taxes? Would it have been enough to pay 33k a year in student loans?

You ridiculed me for my comment regarding quality of life while paying 33k a year in loan debt.

Let's say your salaried and making 50k a year. No overtime.

In Canada, you would take home about 41k. That leaves you 8k to pay for life. Rent, transportation, food and some clothes to wear to work. Would you want that to be your kid?

This is assuming you land a 50k gig, which is pretty good around here. Most of the jobs are in or around Toronto, so transportation is expensive.

Seems like one would have to make at least $60k to even come close to paying off $33k in loans per year and try to live when you consider takes. $60k after takes is more like $49k, subtract out $33k and you're left with ~$16k to live 12 months on. Even sharing a room that would be tough in most states.
Maybe if you can live with M&D, but then they would probably just start a thread complaining how their kids came back after college:)

Exactly...

College/university is becoming a necessity. Now a masters is the new degree. College/university is like graduating highschool now.

college/university is NOT a necessity. I wish more people would understand this.

Not yet, but it is coming.

I don't think it's fair to compare an income of $56k 25-30 years ago to that same salary today.

Assuming the year was 1990, using this calculator: CPI Inflation Calculator $56k would be about $100k today. I don't know anyone making that straight out of college. There is also the cost of living to factor in, and likely many other factors, but I'm not going to get into that.

I'd rather have someone work for me with no formal education as a machinist, but a willingness to work and ability to learn, over someone with a degree, and one of the most frustrating hires you can make is someone with a degree in machining but no job experience. There are plenty of programs that would of given them both work experience and paid for their degree - the fact that they didn't cut it for such a program indicates they were far too lazy.

With a brain, a willingness to work hard, and a pair of shoes and clothing to walk around an industrial area asking for job applications, a person with a basic academic education(not even HS) can start around $20K with overtime, and possibly get to a place to pull $60K+ a year.

Depends on the industry. Completely depends on the industry. If you have the drive you can make it in life without a degree, but you will limit career options.

I'm not saying a degree is necessary for ANY job, but find me evidence that suggests they aren't becoming an increasing requirement for work.

Just a data point for folks who are interested in salaries for people coming out of school.

I popped out of Osgoode Hall law school in Ontario, Canada in 1995 as a fresh-faced 23-year-old. I moved back to my home province of Manitoba and took an articling job at a market rate, $12,000 per year. I lived with my girlfriend (now wife) and we didn't take any money from anybody, neither her parents nor mine. I was fortunate not to have student loans, but we were not living in luxury as she didn't have a job at first after we moved. After my call to the Bar I got a raise to $24K/year.

In 2016 dollars that equates to:

Starting salary after 3 years of university and 3 years of law school: ~$19,000.
Salary after call to the Bar: ~$36,700.

I now lead a team of young lawyers at our company and I know that their salaries far exceed what I made, even adjusted for inflation.

I feel sympathy for kids who emerge from school with huge loads of debt. I know that my entire law school education cost less - only 20 years ago - than kids nowadays pay for one year.

However, at the same time, I see that the expectations of younger people regarding their standard of living are much much higher than those of me and my peers, when we were their age. Many expect that they will instantly have the standard of living that their parents enjoy after half a lifetime of work! This is only exacerbated by the experience of living at home in a catered suite with a big-screen TV, etc. for extended periods as adults. Unfortunately, many young people have no idea what all of that costs (the great majority do not pay anything towards household expenses).

I think that it does people good to experience some hardship when they're starting out. I think that this helps build an appreciation of the better times that can be achieved through hard work.

Cheers

d.

Agree. My first job after graduating from college (USAF to avoid the army) I was making $114 / month plus (because I was married) $40 for separate rations and $60 for housing allowance. For that princely sum I got to live on the local economy (no base housing for 1st termers). So to put it mildly, by the end of the month things were very tight after paying rent, utilities, gasoline, food, etc. $200 didn't go far. and such a "nice" little apartment we had.

We did get "free" health care and somewhat cheaper groceries but BFD for the most part.

$200 in 1968 is about $1400 today.... want to try to live the good life on that ??

$1400 a month is still more than 50k a year with 33k a year in loan payments.

This isn't a thread about how little one made and survived. A point was brought up with someone else's calculation indicating 100k of student debt is a 33k a year payment. I said you wouldn't have a good quality of life paying back 33k a year while making 50k before taxes. He said I'm a entitled millennial. That was the point I was making.

Anyone who took on $100k of debt for a $50k job deserves some pain.

You're right, you wouldn't. In fact you'd likely be bankrupt because you'll barely take home $33K after taxes. Unless you can live for free with Mum and Dad of course - then it might be doable.

So don't sign up for a $33K annual loan repayment. The Canloan calculator defaults to 120 month am with 3% interest. For a $100K loan the monthly payment is about $1,200.

You may need to recalibrate what you consider to be "decent quality of life" for a new university graduate. HINT: It does not include owning a house.

Cheers

d.

Don't think I need to recalibrate. That statement was made regarding a 33k a year payment. Like I said, the statement was made regarding someone else's purported calculation. I was simply pointing out that one could not pay 33k a year and live a decent quality of life.

When I pointed that out, I was told I am a millennial snowflake.

I agree with you. I never said it was a good idea. which is why I asked who exactly is going 100k into debt with student loans and not getting jobs. I believe someone posited that this is something millennials do. And if they do, they are a rarity IMO. Debt and employability is why I did not pursue a master's in Philosophy. Unless something was full ride, I wouldn't of considered it. Hence MBA.

He was pointing out that a similar choice to joining the military and getting the GI bill was attempting to pay off school in 3 years. Obviously, one would only attempt to pay off the full $100k in 3 years would be if a person was wiling to live the same frugal lifestyle as the entry-level soldier. You made the point that it would be difficult to do so and retain a much higher standard of living/comfort level than the soldier. Hence, "snowflake."

Um no. 50k a year before taxes, trying to pay off a loan of 100k in 3 years, would like someone just mentioned, leave you bankrupt.

Please reread what I actually wrote. I said you needed to recalibrate your expectation that a "decent quality of life" for someone fresh out of school includes owning a house and car.

d.

OH. Yes I can agree with that. I did not think through my response. I don't believe a decent quality of life can only be had with a house and a car. Renting is perfectly acceptable. Car ownership, depending on work location, could be a necessity however, but has little bearing on quality of life.

Let me rephrase. At 50k a year, and repaying 33k a year, one could not have a place to live, transportation to and from work, AND live a decent quality of life.

Um...no it would not...unless you borrowed money for other stuff.

...and that was his point. What you construe to be a decent quality of life is far more extravagant than most of us would expect...if trying to quickly pay off a massive debt. Much more cushy than a tour in the military as an E1-3.

What would consider a decent quality of life? Simply meeting basic needs of shelter and food? It's one thing to have the capacity to afford the necessities but another to be struggling to meet them. One is decent, one is not.

What one considers a decent life is relative.

If I had 8k a year to spend, my family would take me in, because they wouldn't consider that a decent life. Nobody in my family would consider 8k a year for all living expenses a decent life. It would be poverty.

My parents, my grandparents, and myself, must all be snowflakes, and millennials.

Standards of living change. What one can consider "decent" changes. But IMO, meeting basic needs, is not decent. Barely getting meals, is not decent. It is just surviving, and if that is decent to you, great, your as hard as a rock, and that is really all your looking to prove here.

I mean seriously. How can one have a decent quality of life without wifi???