Porsche to Muscle Car: Anybody Done it?

[sand_man]

As a gear-head and overall “car guy”, one thing I suffer from is a love of many! From foreign sports cars to domestic rat rods and everything in between, I seems to like them all. Even in racing; an NHRA funny car stokes me as much as a Le Mans prototype! Having said that, I have never owned a ’60s-‘70s era “muscle car”.

Many have suggested that I’ve spent too much time with light weight, decent handling (slowish) foreign iron to ever adapt to an American classic. And truth be told, I have never driven a muscle car. I guess that would be step one; drive one.

So the car in question that’s on my short list is a 1970 Chevelle SS with 4-speed manual. I’m sure the 396 would be plenty, but 454 is fine too. One other caveat is that I don’t buy cars as investments, I drive them. And unfortunately, I can usually only afford one at a time. My 993 is a daily driver…so too would be the Chevelle. And I don’t do restorations, so I buy the best car I can afford, already done, and maintain accordingly...mod as I see fit.

Can one of these cars be made to handle and stop pretty well with mods; better suspension and disc brakes? What about rattles and creaking?

Please share your thoughts, but I’m not looking to turn this into a Ford Vs. Chevy Vs. Dodge/Chrysler thing; they all have made cars that I like and dislike. Right now, the ’70 Chevelle is the car I’m looking into. And before I bought my 930 many years ago, a ’65 GTO was on my list, but muscle car prices were soaring then on that model so I passed.

Lastly, I’m addicted to sound these cars make, especially when rowing through the gears…INTOXICATING!

An example:
1970 CHEVROLET CHEVELLE SS 396 2 DOOR HARDTOP - 138593





A different one being driven:

[tabs]

Bin there done that.

1. 69 Mach 1 428 SCJ...with suspension mods (Global West) and 4 wheel discs. (SS Brake Corp) ..handles like a small block. Even had the Power Steering box blue printed. Ohhh and I built that 428....Still a heavy car. Chirp the tires and your at 70.

2. 66 Corvette 427/425 hp..matching No. car. Thing would squat down and run like a scalded dog.

3. 70 Dodge Challenger 440 Six Pack...fker launched into orbit at 35 mph and it rattled. Not really fun to drive around.

4. 69 911S...original car even have original warranty card with Chassis & motor No.


Wish I never messed with the American iron. The German stuff is finesse, fit and finish, lite weight, maneuverable with lots of road feel and fast down the road once you get rolling. Precision.

[sand_man]

Originally Posted by tabs

The German stuff is finesse, fit and finish, lite weight, maneuverable with lots of road feel and fast down the road once you get rolling. Precision.

Thanks, Tabs. That is the general theme others have presented.

[VINMAN]

Originally Posted by tabs

Bin there done that.
Wish I never messed with the American iron. The German stuff is finesse, fit and finish, lite weight, maneuverable with lots of road feel and fast down the road once you get rolling. Precision.

Different cars for different purposes. Silly to make the comparison.

A "true gearhead" likes em all!


.

[Nickshu]

Originally Posted by VINMAN

Different cars for different purposes. Silly to make the comparison. A "true gearhead" likes em all!

Very True!!! There will never be "one car to do it all"! You have to compare apples to apples....1960's American muscle to 1960's Porsche, the Porsche is way underpowered and build quality while somewhat better than Americans within the limits of the available technology not all that different. If you are comparing restoring 1960's muscle car to a 1990's Porsche, of course the precision and refinement are way different.

LOL, I was in the same conundrum...I am restoring a turbo Corvair...about in the middle between the two. When the turbo Corvairs came out they were faster than the Corvettes of the same year. Rear engine, flat 6, worlds first turbocharged production car...at the time light years ahead of what Porsche had even imagined. By 1964 all the front wheel lift issues on Corvairs were completely worked out, if they were even an issue at all which is debatable if tire pressures were kept correct. Earlier cars can be easily made safer by adding a bolt-on front roll bar and/or the 1964 rear suspension. Late model Corvairs 65-69 (65 got rid of the rear swing arm) are among the best handling cars in US history and are still winning autocrosses today against modern cars. The Corvair community is huge (online forums, clubs, CORSA national has like 30,000 members) and parts are readily available both reproduction, NOS, and used (They build over 1 million of the cars). Just a thought, Corvairs are definitely not the "beaten path" so not for everyone, but it's been a fun journey for me.

[wayner]

I personally think that the IDEA of having an old muscle car is better than ACTUALLY HAVING an old muscle car.

When the old muscle cars started pulling big buck as the auctions years ago, it seemed like just a few years later everyone was bringing them back and buying resto mods.

Whiel you can work with the old frame and suspension, it just seems like those new corvette or custom suspension/frame kits would be the way to go.

Having said that, years ago when I was looking at an original Shelby mustang, I bought a 94 Mustang GT instead to scratch that itch.

I owned it for two season had my fun and moved on.

Now every once in a while I will rent a new Camero when away on business.

I love the stoplight to stoplight V8 grunt. I just can't commit to an older one, or a full time one like I could my 73 911.

[scottmandue]

I would sell a kidney for the Chevelle in your post!

This has been kicked around here before but long story short, yes, they do make modern upgrades to brakes and suspension that can improve the old 1970's tech to have the car handle better.

But it will never handle like a Porsche... however it shouldn't have to (IMHO) apples and oranges... sports cars Vs muscle cars.

I grew up driving 1970's (and late 60"s) iron and would love to pick up something... however I fear the "classic car" craze has priced any of those cars out of my middle class budget... fortunately for motor heads like me there is always a work around... (996 prices are tempting... and modern american muscle cars deprecate pretty fast)

[wayner]

Originally Posted by wayner

I love the stoplight to stoplight V8 grunt. I just can't commit to an older one, or a full time one like I could my 73 911.

(Cont'd)...I did convince my wife to buy this as HER daily driver though

[Nickshu]

Originally Posted by wayner

I personally think that the IDEA of having an old muscle car is better than ACTUALLY HAVING an old muscle car.

True that...it's tough to own any classic if you are a checkbook mechanic. If you can do a lot of work yourself and understand how to drive and maintain a classic to keep it running it's a lot easier, but you have to expect issues to deal with here and there. Or have a lot of cash and time to spend w/ your mechanic.

[sand_man]

Originally Posted by wayner

I personally think that the IDEA of having an old muscle car is better than ACTUALLY HAVING an old muscle car.

My dad, fellow enthusiast says the same thing. Maybe what's intriguing to me, is that a muscle car IS so different and I know that coming from a 993 (an orange), I'd for sure be getting an apple with the Chevelle. The question remains, will I like the apple? Not quite ready yet, but hoping curiosity doesn't kill the cat..

[bpu699]

This past weekend I was changing the spark plugs on the 930... What would take 5 minutes on a Mustang, took 4 hours and I am not done. Reaching those things is near impossible...

Sometimes I wish I had been attracted to muscle cars... but you are what you are...

[stomachmonkey]

That Chevelle is sweet.

Fond HS memories.

I always keep a look out for one in need of some love.

Probably will acquire one some day.

[CJFusco]

My father-in-law is a serious DIY guy -- he owns a 71 Challenger R/T, a modded 74 Duster, and a 1970 Chevy Commanche truck. His brother is even more obsessed: he has a warehouse with a rotating cast of 20+ cars: 2 Rambler Scramblers, a Boss 302, Chevelle SS, Corvettes of almost every vintage; he even has a 71 Challenger R/T built for him by Graveyard Carz (he doesn't discriminate, though: his daily driver is a Benz).

Anyhow, my in-laws' cars are definitely cool, and the Challenger has some serious power, but... not really that fun to drive. Not for me, anyhow. He lives in a quiet, rural Connecticut farming town (actually, he owns most of the farmland within few square miles) that has tight, twisty back roads. Imagine going from a lightly-modified Cayman S and then jumping into a 71 Challenger. Night and day. The Challenger felt HUGE, with vague steering, lots of body roll... of course, I am aware that suspension work does wonders, but this particular car left me wanting.

Other side of the coin: the next town over has frequent Summertime car shows/cruise nights, and these are populated almost exclusively by muscle car, hot rod, and Corvette guys. My in-laws' friend has an Acura NSX, and it doesn't even get a glance. Occasionally a 911SC or Carrera 3.2 will roll through and it's as though they don't exist. But I'll tell ya -- there's something about rolling through those downtown cruise nights in a Mopar classic that's just sorta... magical. Tough to describe. I totally get why people want one, though; the rumble of the V8 as you coast along with the windows down, getting and sharing thumbs-up with passers-by's rides... maybe doing a short burnout... letting it rip for a few seconds once the road straightens out and empties. Yeah, I get it. I'd rather have something to carve up the back roads that define my neck of the woods, but I get why people might go in the other direction.

[wayner]

I think one of the real cool things to do it to adopt the following mindset with any vehicle:

Drive the car the way it wants to be driven rather than how you want to drive it.
It changes the experience drastically, and make any car enjoyable.

Cruising around in a big old floaty late 60s Chrysler can be enjoyable even if it is as big as a whale...

[aigel]

I went the opposite direction. I started out in Muscle cars and / or cars of the era. 68, 69, 71 Cutlass coupes and Convertibles, 71 442, 71 Corvette ...

They were all a lot of fun and building engines was a blast. Also easy to hop up. The 442 was a stomp pulling monster with posi - you'd hit the gas and it would roast both radials all the way to 3rd where it'd finally hook up. I never drag raced it but my accelerometer gizmo had it in the 13s.

Ultimately what brought me to Porsche is the ability to go around turns and take them to road race courses. I met a friend through the Oldsmobiles who had a 911 which he tracked - that planted the seed and shortly after, I had my SC. I had the SC and muscle cars in parallel for a while but sold the vette and SC to buy the 993.

I will one day have a muscle car again. But it will be set up for road course.

Have fun, whatever you decide!

G

[ted]

With the muscle car you might want to consider not getting too aggressive with the suspension.
The ones you see at the Goodguys AX events are resto mods with very stiff suspensions.
Not something you want to drive daily or long distances.
A late 60s muscle car with stock suspension and adjustable shocks, front firm back on medium will be stable but still a comfortable ride on the freeway.

When I drive mine in weekday traffic it feels like all the nimble under-powered new cars are making quicker lane changes and out maneuvering my big heavy muscle car.
In the muscle car I drive a little more defensively because it won't stop or turn like a new car.

With a muscle car I say keep it near stock and enjoy it as they were originally sold back in the day.
It's a fun perspective to experience what Americans were driving back in the 60s.
It might include more noise and a whiff of gear oil or anti freeze too.
When I do drive my muscle car I enjoy the contrast driving it as it was built compared to the newer cars.
Today most drivers are spoiled with safe cars with nannies and sensors and may find the muscle cars too raw/basic.

Be cautious with anything with a vinyl roof. The vinyl creates a sauna effect and could be covering a very rusted roof.

These cars are fun but big heavy with good enough brakes and perhaps over boosted/too light on the power steering.
You can get an inline restrictor to lower the boost, it helps a little.

As a daily driver your Chevelle would not be fun in stop and go traffic or on a rainy day.
Muscle cars are best on sunny days.

Also back in the day multi tasking in a muscle car meant smoking while driving.
There are no cup holders since you are too busy shifting and trying to stay seated on a beach ball of a chair with no lateral side support.

I have a 70 Z28 with the Muncie 4 speed and I really like the car.
It does drive/handle a little better than my old 70 half ton Chevy pick up.

Driving an old American car just seems patriotic, most of the time.
The car gets attention, some really like it.
Although I think some Prius owners scoff at its carbon foot print.

[kaisen]

Do you want a numbers-matching authentic Chevelle SS?

Or do you want a modern take on a Chevelle, but with updated underpinnings, tires, and powertrain?

I have a bunch of buddies that have those cars and they FLY... in fact, they race them on road courses and run autocross nearly every weekend. They look badass, they sound badass, and they are wicked fast.

Or, you can listen to the guys who can't get past the preconception that only old German lightweight aircooled rear engine cars can be fun on a twisty road.

[aigel]

One comment I forgot earlier. Safety. If you really drive it every day, I'd be concerned. Get into a mid-size wreck in an A body with possibly only lap belts - you'll be hurting big time. The 993 or any other car that's 25 years younger will fare much better in protecting you in an accident. That said, I drove mine all daily, including the convertibles that had lap belts only.

G

[kaisen]

Originally Posted by ted

With the muscle car you might want to consider not getting too aggressive with the suspension.
The ones you see at the Goodguys AX events are resto mods with very stiff suspensions.
Not something you want to drive daily or long distances.

The key is a stiff frame/subframe, like those from Detroit Speed Enterprises (DSE), Art Morrison Chassis, the Roadster Shop, etc. The *ride* doesn't have to be stiff, in fact many are suspended on air. They can ride and handle quite well. And yes, I'm talking about my friends that run Autocross at Goodguys events or Optima Ultimate Street Car. Hella quick, and decent road manners too

[aigel]

Eric is correct - there are some smoking fast old iron US cars. But be prepared to spend some money on those modifications. None of them will run $2k crate engines and $20 replacement brake pads. Your 993 will run circles around any mildly modified A body GM cars unless they are set up seriously - to the point where they will be 993 money.

G