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Maybe that is what's wrong with most kids today. Their parents aren't the greatest influence in their life. They should be IMO.

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Originally Posted by Scott Douglas (Post 9633498)

Maybe that is what's wrong with most kids today. Their parents aren't the greatest influence in their life. They should be IMO.

I agree, but think about it for a minute. Once they get to school age, they spend more time with other kids. When they get to adolescence, they are with them 8 hours a day, then tethered to them another 8 with smart phones and computers. A parent is luck to get an hour or two consistently.

Fight all you want, the kids will usually win.

JR

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Originally Posted by javadog (Post 9633450)

Anybody that has raised kids in this era will realize that, no matter how well you raise them or what you teach them, kids under 25 lack the common sense and judgement of older adults. We adults think we do a good job but the kids are also raised by their peers and they don't see the world in the same way we do (and did, at their age) and you'd be a fool to think you were their greatest influence.

So, blame the kid for being there in the first place, if you want. You are all twice or three times his age and should, and do, know better.

Having said that, I doubt just about every aspect of the story of his imprisonment. I think he was taken as a political pawn and it's pretty likely that nothing in the NK narrative has the slightest ring of truth. The video shows nothing. If you study it for very long, you'll note that the figure doesn't have the shape of Otto, doesn't dress like Otto and doesn't act like Otto. That person puts what looks like a portrait of Kim Idiot #2 on the floor rather reverently, like a good Korean would do. The hallway is rather well lit for NK at night. The video is conveniently fuzzy, made more so in the close-up version.

Then you get to his confession. That makes no sense, which means the NK goons wrote it for him. It describes a plot no westerner would concoct, because we don't think like they do in NK.

Then, consider the statements of his older, male roommate for the trip who says that this is out of character for the Otto he spent almost a week with and, oh by the way, he doesn't recall noticing Otto missing during the night.

Various other videos show what looks like, to my eyes at least, a drugged Otto being hauled around, fingerprinted, etc. Then, there are the intelligence reports that indicate that he was treated differently than most western prisoners... the bull**** story from NK about what happened to him... etc.

We may eventually learn the real story, or we may not, but I think he was hand-picked to be a pawn by NK and his only crime was being in the wrong place. And I can tell you that I will not put any blame on his shoulders for that. He paid a high price and I'm not going to add to that with stupid, judgemental comments. I hope something good comes of his sacrifice.

JR

This. I think he was selected either as a bargaining token or as a propaganda pawn. Either way, whatever NK wanted to do with him didn't work and they basically killed him in the process. He may well have resisted being a propaganda tool and paid for it with his life.

I don't doubt that for a moment, but, it still was HIS decision to go there in the first place. No one held a gun to his head and said he had to go.

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Originally Posted by mgatepi (Post 9633198)

But yet our last administration was able to get back a transgender traitor by the release of known terrorists. Perhaps if Otto had been transgender (or of the correct political identity group) he would have been home in record time.

I find it hard to believe there was nothing that could be done......

Look around the inventory, do we have any imprisoned North Koreans available to trade for American hostages in North Korea? Nope. Next rant from you?

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Originally Posted by masraum (Post 9633175)

Because he kills anyone that he wants to, including family and anyone else that his whim dictates. To kill him, you'd probably have to be really close to him, and even then, if you are currently close to him, and then kill him, you'll almost certainly be killed by whoever is left unless you work out a big conspiracy ahead of time. So you haven't gained yourself anything. To work out the big conspiracy ahead of time is risking death. I assume this is a lot like E Germany with the Stasi with everyone watching everyone else and ready to turn anyone else in.

Yup. Same reason why Hitler, Stalin, Fidel, etc weren't assassinated.

People gotta stop thinking reality is a James Bond movie.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Douglas (Post 9633549)

I don't doubt that for a moment, but, it still was HIS decision to go there in the first place. No one held a gun to his head and said he had to go.

Or told him it was OK to break any rules in NK. Steal a poster and die, is pretty harsh punishment, but it is their country. If you don't like the rules, don't go there.

I bet they have not had any poster thefts since he got caught.

My dad told me that if I do stupid stuff, stupid stuff happens to me.

The same sort of coddling parenting that is saying that we should have come to Otto's rescue is the kind of upbringing that made him unaware of the danger. Your kids die every day, sailing a sailboat in a storm, getting drunk in Aruba and hooking up with a murderer, running a foot race through bear country, and on and on. It's about as dumb as being a blonde with big boobs trying to walk through a mob of protesters in Tahrir Square.

As I said, it's sad, sure. But he'd have been shot in Soviet Russia, or Nazi Germany, and many other places. There are places you don't go, and things you don't do, regardless of age, regardless of your privilege, and how understanding the rest of the world "needs" to be toward you.

So people like Jeff Higgins, I am sorry but I don't share your sense of outrage and bleeding heart empathy. The dude was exactly the kind of person who really should stay home, or at least do not set foot in a country that has declared itself diplomatic enemies of the United States (I mean HEL-LOOO!).

Rough crowd. Insensitive, too.

JR

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Originally Posted by GH85Carrera (Post 9633603)

It's certainly not clear that he stole a poster, or anything else. That video doesn't conclusively show anything, much less that it was actually him.

I'm with the others here, I highly doubt it was him. My guess is he was simply taken as a pawn, on set up/bogus charges.

I do think he has to take some of the blame, though. An American who chooses to go to North Korea has to accept that he or she may be taken as a pawn, on bogus charges. It's kind of what they do.

It's like if you choose to stick your head in an alligator's open mouth. Maybe you get away with it, but you can't be surprised if you get your head bit off.

Like everyone else, he had the opportunity to reduce his risk of being taken captive by North Korea to zero (i.e., follow the very explicit advice of the US government (and common sense), and don't go there). He chose to accept the risk, and he paid the price. So in that sense, he isn't really a completely innocent victim.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jyl (Post 9633587)

Look around the inventory, do we have any imprisoned North Koreans available to trade for American hostages in North Korea? Nope. Next rant from you?

Wow so naive....do you really think North Korea wants more North Koreans? Silly boy....
North Korea wants / needs MONEY!

You guys want to crowd fund my trip to North Korea? Proceeds to my wife. Payout goes to her even if I return alive :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgatepi (Post 9633763)

Wow so naive....do you really think North Korea wants more North Koreans? Silly boy....
North Korea wants / needs MONEY!

Okay, should the US govt have paid $10MM, or $100MM, for his release? What exactly do you claim should have been done?

No, the US doesn't pay ransoms. Well, not until Barry gave Iran a few hundred billion.

Hopefully any future ransoms will be delivered by a cruise missile.

JR

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Originally Posted by motion (Post 9633789)

You guys want to crowd fund my trip to North Korea?

Depends on how many PARF regulars are going along on this adventure and if they all will be riding British or Harley Davidson motorcycles.

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Originally Posted by pavulon (Post 9633824)

Depends on how many PARF regulars are going along on this adventure and if they all will be riding British or Harley Davidson motorcycles.

Good idea... kinda like hiking in bear country with someone who runs slower than you do.

Does anyone remember over the past year and a half ANY news concerning the negotiations of Otto's release by the O administration?

As for the amount, (don't call it ransom, call it a donation for the NK leaders sex change operation, this would be an easy sell to the left) I don't know ....what is a middle class white boys worth anymore in the age of Identity politics?

I didn't see any comments on this..Dennis Rodman hopes to do 'something pretty positive' in North Korea - CNNPolitics.com
Arrived just hours before they released Otto.
Who knows..they're both nuts.

There are still 3 U.S. citizens detained in NK. Wonder if this will bring about a release.