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Browning Model 12 shotguns
Anyone know the history of the Browning made Model 12 shotguns? I think that they were made about 1990, probably by Miroku in Japan. I have one in 28 gauge and would like to know more of the history.
Thks,
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FEC3 1980 911SC coupe "Zeus" 3.3SS god of thunder and lightning |
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06-25-2017, 04:48 AM
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Bill is Dead.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Alaska.
Posts: 9,633
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From Shotgun World:
The Browning Md 12s that were made in Japan were good guns. They made a few internal design changes, larger hammer face, trigger disconnect, (have to release the trigger and pull again after cycling). Small Dealer cost from a distributor back in the early 90s when they came out was $495-$499. From Cabelas Gun Library: Browning had Miroku manufacture 4,000 Model 12 guns with select walnut stocks, fine checkering 22 lines per inch, and game scene engraving.
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06-25-2017, 05:07 AM
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Double Trouble
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: North of Pittsburgh
Posts: 11,705
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I would think the 28 is rather rare as well.
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I used to be addicted to the hokey pokey..........but I turned myself around.. 75 914 1.8 2010 Cayenne base |
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06-25-2017, 06:00 AM
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Talk Less, Say More
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Moab Utah. Home of wierd red & orange radioactive stuff... And 1 billion tourists.
Posts: 13,163
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From a recent S.P. Fjestad Blue Book of Gun Values (37th edition). p.365-366
BROWNING MODEL 12 LIMITED EDITION SERIES Reproduction of the famous Winchester Model 12 with slight design improvements. Model 12 limited edition grade I 28 ga. Similar to grade I 20 Ga. except in 28 GA. 26" VR modified choke barrel, 5 shot mag. high post floating rib, Walnut stock and forearm with semi-gloss finish, take down. 5 digit serial number with NM872 suffix. 7,000 manufactured 1991-1992 Potential value (You have to find a buyer): 100% assumes new in box, never fired, all paperwork, etc. etc... 98%, you may have pulled the trigger once, no visible wear. 100% $1,050 98% $875 95% $700 Model 12 limited edition grade V 28 ga. Similar to grade V 20 Ga. except in 28 GA. 26" VR modified choke barrel, 5 shot mag. high post floating rib, Select Walnut stock and forearm checkered 22 lines per inch, high gloss finish, extensive game scene engraving including multiple gold inlays take down. 5 digit serial number with NM972 suffix. 5,000 manufactured 1991-1992 Potential value (you have to find a buyer): 100% assumes new in box, never fired, all paperwork, etc. etc... 98%, you may have pulled the trigger once, no visible wear. 100% $1,675 98% $1,350 95% $1,000 Which one is it? By the way, the 4,000 manufactured number above in post #2 is for the 20 gauge , not the 28 gauge..
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cRaIg CaRr 2000 Dyna FXDX, 2001 Sportster Sport, 2000 R1100S,2007 R1200S,2015 rNineT,2023 F850GS,2023 R1250RS, 2017 Triumph T100, 2019 Jeep Rubicon, 2005 Jeep Sport, 2001 Corvette, 1978 Porsche 928. 2001 GMC Sierra 2500HD, 22 pairs of shoes. 24 bottles of beer. Last edited by ckcarr; 06-25-2017 at 07:49 AM.. |
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06-25-2017, 07:40 AM
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A Man of Wealth and Taste
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Quote:
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06-25-2017, 08:08 AM
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A Man of Wealth and Taste
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Now that we have learned ALLL that there is to learn about the Browning MDL 12's.
Browning starting around 1980 started REINTRODUCING long discontinued Winchester models mostly that John Browning designed. Starting with the Winchester model 95 lever rifle. They came in 2 calibers 30/40 Krag and 30/06 in both a High Grade V5 or Standard Grade. Eventually around 1990 Browning got around to manufacturing the Model 12's. They came in 20 GA and 28 GA in both a High Grade and Standard Grade. As with ALL of these REINTRODUCTIONS they could be had in in MATCHED PAIRS having the same Serial NO. No body really seems to care though. A bit later Browning also introduced the Winchester 42 in 410 GA. All the Browning REINTRODUCTIONS were made in Japan by Miroku. They all are on limited run. The numbers posted above are a rough order of value... Generally the Standard Grades sell for are 750.00 to $800.00 in the Box, The High Grades around $1500 in the box...RECENTLY a High Grade 28GA went for $2000.00. (Rock Island in April 2017). The Mdl 42's Standards tend to run a bit more... $900 to $1000... They are well made as everything Browning, they are a modern replacement for a venerable and highly regarded WInchester shotgun...They generally are not barn burners for appreciation though, very steady and stable in price until April? Most people do not seem to have shot them but have kept them practically NIB, as such that is mostly the condition you find them in. Maybe they thought they would become instant collectables? PSHAW... They generally are NOT HARD TO FIND...the 42's maybe? Since the REAL Winchester 42's made a big jump in price a few years ago the Browning is a good alternative..Now it seems the Winchester 42 market has cooled a bit. I currently have the 20 GA Standard and the 410 GA Standard. Now we come to the Winchester PARKER SXS REINTRODUCTION made in Japan that took place in the late 1980's....Mostly they were DHE Grade in 20 GA and 28 GA in one and two barrel sets. Back in the early 90's you could get them for $3000 on close outs. The parts between the original and recreation are interchangeable. To reproduce them today it would be at least $10,000.00 a copy. Again most are at the most lightly used and the price range for a single barrel 20 GA is in the high 3's....with the two barrel 28 GA set going for $6.5 to $7.5. This price structure has been stable and steady for years....However lately... a CHE went for about $11K. I have always thought that these would make the jump into the stratosphere? As an ORIGINAL Parker DHE 28 GA is hovering around 40 to 50....I had one in my hands and was bidding on it, stopped at 7K the guy who bought it was a furniture dealer who was bidding for a friend and was authorized to go to 12K. That DHE a few months later was put through a Butterfield auction for 18K....after that the next DHE 28 that I saw went for 40K and after that over 50K.... Only 70 ever made...Thus with the rarity and exclusivity of the real deals the Winchester repos become desirable and as they dry up...well the price goes up.
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06-25-2017, 08:42 AM
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I should have said in the original post, the gun is a Grade 1 28 gauge.
I also have a Winchester made Model 12 20 gauge skeet gun. It appears that the 20 gauge and the 28 gauge were made on the same size receiver, approximately same barrel length and length of pull. Even though the Winnie has been fired quite a bit, the trigger on the unused Browning 28 gauge feels every bit as smooth with little or no takeup and a reasonable release length. Since I never shot the Winchester by holding the trigger and pumping the action, the trigger disconnect on the Browning is not an issue to me. It will be interesting to see how well I can do with the smaller shot charge and the modified choke barrel compared to the 20 gauge gun's skeet bore! Thanks to all for the above info. Much appreciated.
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FEC3 1980 911SC coupe "Zeus" 3.3SS god of thunder and lightning Last edited by fred cook; 06-25-2017 at 09:07 AM.. |
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06-25-2017, 09:00 AM
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A Man of Wealth and Taste
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Quote:
Unfortunately every tom and swinging dick harry has a copy of the Blue Book and consider it to be the Bible or last word on pricing...so in some senses it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.. I always consider it a as a BROAD ORDER OF VALUE that that can be used to gauge value. The problem with firearms is that for the most part the Models, Serial NUmbers and Calibers are stamped into the spoon. Armed with a Blue Book ANYBODY and EVERYBODY can find out what it is and it's value. So there is little mystery and little margin to be had ANYMORE in old spoons. Prices AT AUCTION for the same model of Spoon DOES NOT VARY by more than a few dollars from coast to coast. Mostly the diff is in who is watching and who isn't..and what they are looking for. But once in a BLUE MOON something comes along........where the planets align where two knowledgable people do not see the same item. Did I say knowledge is king...and then you can pounce.  Last December I bought two items...a Springfield 1903 made in 1922 in near new condition...from the pictures it had a polished bolt and upon close examination of the pictures it had a 1921 style National Match rear sight. I called the auctioneer and had him eyeball the rifle for me...and found that the rifle was consigned with a grouping of a WW1 Vets memorabilia. Hmmmm, only NM riles had polished bolts so I gots the 03 for what a very clean standard production of the same vintage 03 would go for. Upon getting it, it had the Star Gauge marking on the Crown of the Barrel and Number on the barrel under the forestock, so along with it having a polished bolt, a National Match rear sight and a very crisp trigger it IS A 1922 Style National Match rifle....BINGO....no one else who knew anything about them saw it....I waited a long time to find one like that. The other was a S&W 629 4 inch PINNED AND RECESSED made in 1981....only made for one year (the 4 and 8.375)....as in 1982 SW discontinued Pinning and Recessing in a cost cutting move. They have been recognized for being rarities and are priced accordingly....however no one else at this auction picked up on it as it went for a standard 629 price. Again I waited a long time for the right one to come along. Ironically this weekend at the same auction house where I picked up the 629, I was able to get ahold of a Winchester 94 22 XTR for $360 plus shipping and assorted fees pertaining to the transfer. And then there are the idiot descriptions and pictures...ignorance abounds in the land and is not in any short supply.
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Copyright "Some Observer" Last edited by tabs; 06-25-2017 at 09:47 AM.. |
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06-25-2017, 09:41 AM
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Bill is Dead.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Alaska.
Posts: 9,633
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Quote:
From Guns International: Browning Model 12 Limited Edition Grade V, 28 Bore, 5,000 of these were made. I would have thought Tabs would have some sort of definitive production numbers, as well as the names of everyone who worked in the machine shop. Probably a good place for valuation is to simply check the ads on Gun Broker and Armslist.
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-.-. .- ... .... ..-. .-.. -.-- . .-. The souls of the righteous are in the hand of God, and no torment will ever touch them. |
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06-25-2017, 09:42 AM
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Registered
Join Date: Mar 2003
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Best way to find real value is to get a gunbroker account and search completed auctions sorting by number of bids.
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06-25-2017, 09:45 AM
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A Man of Wealth and Taste
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Out there somewhere beyond the doors of perception
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Quote:
I just found this out recently when talking to a Safari Club friend of mine in S CA...the guy loves his Krieghoff 28....at one time he was ranked #2 in Shooting skeet in CA...now he goes out to Deadlands on Sunday and invariably shoots 24 or 25 birds on every round with the 28...only one station gives him a bit of trouble...after all he is getting older...
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06-25-2017, 09:53 AM
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A Man of Wealth and Taste
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Quote:
Gun Broker, Arms List, Guns America or GUNS INTERNATIONAL...hmmmpt....if that is your universe...oh well.
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06-25-2017, 10:01 AM
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A Man of Wealth and Taste
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Out there somewhere beyond the doors of perception
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Quote:
The aforementioned sites are a RETAIL MARKET.... I really never use GB or any of the other mentioned sites on a regular basis for pricing. I use the spot pricing that is derived from AUCTION PRICES.... I watch auction prices from coast to coast on a weekly basis. I book mark whatever it is that I am interested in...and a lot that doesn't. And anything that is unique and rare..So I keep a continuing tabulation of what is happening in the market place... Ohh and btw where do you think that the Dealers get their inventory? I have seen spoons go at auction only to see them appear two weeks later on those aforementioned sites.  
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06-25-2017, 10:10 AM
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A Man of Wealth and Taste
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Out there somewhere beyond the doors of perception
Posts: 51,063
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In April an auction house in FL had an extensive British Enfield collection....one piece was a1896 Long Lee Mk II with a rare circa WW1 set of sniper sights....it went for $1200...6 weeks later it reappeared at Morphy in NC where it sold for $1800. Other than that I do not know what went on with that deal?
However...they also had a out of the paper wrapping and cosmoline UNISSUED Enfield No 4 Mk II that was put into storage in the UK back in 1955. It went unissued because at the time the Brits were converting from 303 to 308 and going with the FN FAL...they were in war storage. In the mid 90's several thousands were imported into the USA for a minor amount of money. That rifle went for $700 hammer or apx $840 wt buyers premium. A month later Little John in Anaheim has 5 of those rifles up for auction...4 still in the paper wrappers and cosmoline wt box and bayonet and one cleaned and out of the paper wrapper, the lots divided over the 3 sessions of the auction. The first session has 2 in the paper, they both go for 1K each hammer to internet bidders with a 20% premium or $1200 plus ship. Hmmm day two he has one in the paper wt box and bayonet same as the others..I pounce and get it for $700 or $822 on A PHONE BID which is charged the same as a Floor Bidder (at a 15% premium...hmmm me no likeie to PAY 5% MORE FOR THE PRIVILEGE OF INTERNET BIDDING..that gives advantage to the Floor bidders.) Day 3 one out of the paper went for $750 plus 20% and the last one in the paper for $850 plus the 20%.. Hmmm I find that if I unwrap that spoon I LOSE at least $375, as that appears to be the differential between New in the wrap and New outa the wrap.....decisions, decisions decisions...and there is a solution..... Carol Watson in OC has an auction at the end of May....where she has a......you guessed it a Enfield No4 Mk II New outa the wrap with bayonet, and some other assorted cleaning stuff with it....So AGAIN on a PHONE BID I get that one for $750.00 plus 15% and ship. I wana shoot the Beothch... The Enfield No4 Mk II's as POSTWAR production returned to the higher quality finish standards of the prewar Enfields...BUT the late 54 to 55 production was never issued, but was put into war storage by the Brits..that is why they are so desirable. Price on GB for an earlier as issuedwith wear and tear NO 4 Mk II is $1877.00... So if I were to put my in the wrapper No 4 up for sale it would be for $2500...as almost all were unwrapped...so it is a rarity to have one in the wrap...One of the Websites on Enfields pictures one in the wrap and another outa the wrap...it was unique enough for them to picture one in the wrap...ohh welll who am I to question it? BTW my extra 14 inch Shang Wok went for 450....
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Copyright "Some Observer" Last edited by tabs; 06-25-2017 at 11:11 AM.. |
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06-25-2017, 10:59 AM
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Registered
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06-25-2017, 11:05 AM
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28ga vs................
Quote:
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FEC3 1980 911SC coupe "Zeus" 3.3SS god of thunder and lightning |
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06-25-2017, 11:19 AM
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Well, well what have we here.............
Quote:
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FEC3 1980 911SC coupe "Zeus" 3.3SS god of thunder and lightning |
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06-25-2017, 11:24 AM
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A Man of Wealth and Taste
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Out there somewhere beyond the doors of perception
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Quote:
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06-25-2017, 11:25 AM
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A Man of Wealth and Taste
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Out there somewhere beyond the doors of perception
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Quote:
I like the pre wars that are almost mint...I had a 1939 12 GA and sold it...rather than dink around with the Winchesters I have the two Brownings and call it good. Which brings me to another subject...there are a lot of small auction houses throughout the country that hold spoon auctions...those auctions sometimes only have 50 or 60 people in the brick and mortar audience....but they have 500 or more people watching and bidding on line....Because of that it drives prices on virtually everything to let us say a fair market value..and if it is rare and desirable...ohhh well like flys on shyte.. There is no way that 50 or 60 people would be able to not only buy the auction inventory of say 100 to 200 pieces but be able to sustain a fair market value. Not only that but the knowledge level of the buyer for the most part would be lower where a unique and or rare variation would slip through the cracks. So the deals are getting much harder to come by. Now that Winchester 94 22 XRT for $300 hammer and 20%...$360....that is from a small east coast auction house that probably had only 50 or 60 people in attendance...It was very late in the auction where the crowd had thinned out as well as the on line buyers.. The deal on that one is that it is missing the Bolt...which can be bought from Mid Way I believe for about $90. As such MOST internet buyers do not know what they are getting into nor what it cost and as such wouldn't bid, same thing with the in attendance crowd. It is an unknown and do not want to dink with proposition. So I knew that my hurdle going into the auction was the PRE BID online guys who would give it a low ball shot...and sure enough when it came up my prebid held..no other bidders. Now what do they go for generally.....out of the box apx 650 to 750 with the in box ones going for about 1K or a little better. They are on the rise, and have been since they were discontinued by Winchester. My fk up on this one is that I have to pay for shipping, have a FFL receive it and back ground check it and in my glorious state have to pay Sales TAX...ehhhhh. Then put it back together...BUT NO I WANTED TO HAVE ONE OF THOSE AGAIN> and this is about the cheapest way to get it? Where as because I have a C&R everything that is 50 years or older gets sent right to me, with no assorted FFL fees attached...
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06-25-2017, 11:59 AM
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(the shotguns)
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Maryland
Posts: 21,577
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Sherlock or not he's right. gun auctions, at least here, are notorious for bringing the dimmest of the dim buyers under one roof to overpay in order to feel important. Fjiestads is irrelevant now. gunbroker and gunsamerica are great sources for REAL WORLD pricing not auction pricing which carries a large % cut to the auction house for the privilege of attracting people who feel the need to get a hand job from a slick talking greaseball while bidding. I think you are ignoring the market where a guy who wants a particular gun actually goes out and finds it in favor of a parlor game where people have fun trying to guess which gun will be worth more down the road. as Paul Donkin would say you know the price of everything and the value of nothing. on the subject of miroku I don't have anything to offer on the history other than the mystique of the model 12 is NOT connected to the Miroku models and their value should be more based on the quality of mfr (which with both Miroku and Browning in general is very good).
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***************************************** Well i had #6 adjusted perfectly but then just before i tightened it a butterfly in Zimbabwe farted and now i have to start all over again! I believe we all make mistakes but I will not validate your poor choices and/or perversions and subsidize the results your actions. Last edited by berettafan; 06-28-2017 at 05:36 AM.. |
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06-28-2017, 05:31 AM
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Zeus (god of thunder and lightning)
1978 Porsche 928
2003 BMW Dakar
2000 Harley-Davidson Dyna FXDX Super Glide Sport
2007 BMW R1200S
2010 BMW F800GS
1983 Honda XL600r
2000 BMW R1100S
2001 BMW F650GS
