exterior french doors - door swing question

[rfuerst911sc]

Our new to us home has two vinyl sliding doors that are 5 ' wide . I have never been a fan of sliding doors and one of these has a broken seal between the panes of glass and has started to rust at the bottom . We are planning on replacing both with french doors.

So what is the correct way ( if there is one ) to determine in swing vs. out swing ? Or is it just determined by physical space ? And does one type " seal " better than the other or is it all in the install ? We are thinking either steel or vinyl with the blinds between the glass . Can you get a " decent " set for 750.00 each or so ? Like anything else have to try and stay within budget .

Is wood or fiberglass also an option ?

[javadog]

Exterior doors almost always swing in. This puts the hinges on the inside and makes them more resistant to entry. If you swing them out, then you will have to modify the hinges so that any idiot with a hammer and a punch can't get in your house in 30 seconds or less. There are other issues, but that one's the big decider for me.

My personal suggestion would be what I have chosen. I use wood doors, with true, separate divided lights made from double pane insulated glass. I chose some of the high-end Pella products, which are not going to be in that price range. They have other product lines that may be less expensive than what I chose to use. You'll want to use doors that are pre-hung in a jamb. Those are relatively easy to install, although there are individuals out there that can **** those up too. Whatever you do, don't buy doors and try to build a jamb and hang them yourself.

Anderson also makes good doors. I'd stick with one of the bigger companies, because of the quality of the warranty. There may be some local companies that make their own products, but I haven't been impressed with those that are available around here.

I don't particularly like the complexity of internal blinds. I would rather spend that same money on a better quality door, and then use a traditional window treatment on the inside. Having had a wife, I have found that they are fond of things that can be made from expensive fabrics.

One last thing about using quality doors and windows.... 15 or 20 years ago I embarked on replacing all of the windows and doors in my house. One benefit of that has been to render the house completely quiet from most noise outside. The difference between my windows and what I used to have is astonishing.

[drcoastline]

Javadog offers good advice and I to would go with one of the better companies/doors. I will differ in that a door designed to open out has hinges that are not capable of being disassembled from the outside and/or need special tools in order to be disassembled. Keep in mind commercial doors are designed to open out for safety reasons per code.

Regarding which direction is correct? Either is correct it depends most on preference. I personally like French doors that swing out. My major reason is a door that swings in removes usable space from the interior of a room which is more likely to be used more often than the outside. French doors compound the unusable space. In a large room with one set of doors that may not be that big of a deal. So room size will be a factor.

I also like when the door has enough room to open fully and lay back flat against the wall out of the way, again allowing more usable room on the outside.

[nvr2mny]

We are currently in the process of a remodel and are doing the exact same thing, replacing an slider with French doors. We are using Marvin steel doors that swing in. One of the doors in the house has the internal blinds and while that was the "thing" years ago, it just looks cheap today.
Javadog makes some good points above.

[javadog]

One additional note regarding the posts above. Because French doors are almost exclusively a product used in homes, finding a set that has hinges suitable for opening outward may be a little tougher than finding a commercial door that opens out. The comment he made about doors swinging out wide enough to lay flat against the wall can be applied to those swinging inwards as well, if you have the wall space. Of course that also impacts the window treatment question.

At any rate, you have the knowledge to go forth and ask questions...

If you do select one of the bigger brands, you'll find that the big box stores tend to carry the lower-cost lines for the manufacturers. If cost is the main factor, that may be a place to start. I always use the Pella store. As a contractor, I can buy them for less money than the average consumer. They do sometimes offer sales and promotions, so that's something to consider as well.

[dad911]

You don't swing out over stairs. Need to swing over a platform. Almost all residential is swing in, commercial swing out.

What room is it for? We typically use sliders in kit/dinette, because of table and chair interference.

French doors in Family rooms, etc.

Newer sliders are much better. Frankly, I hate the Anderson french door in my FR, every few years I need to adjust it. Slider in dinette always works fine.

[LEAKYSEALS951]

I'm a rebel. I put an outward swinging french door in the master bedroom several years ago. It opens onto a bedroom deck.

The hinges are exposed, but seem to be riveted on both sides, so unlike an interior door, one couldn't just hammer out the pins. First, they would need to drill out the rivets, then push out the pins. 6 of them i think.

As grateful as I would be for a thief to go through so much trouble as to not harm the door, I always assumed they would just smash a brick through it and waltz right in. Checking the door today b/c of this thread, I was happily reminded that a thief wouldn't even need to do that, as my wife had left it completely unlocked. And before I could even think of Grady in the shining stating she needs "correcting", I realized her two dogs were snoozing right at the door, one of which is a flaming pitbull with rabies. So, there, my fortress is protected by several layers of ignorant serendipity.


At any rate I chose the outside swing door for two reasons. First- I wanted to be able to open the doors out so they wouldn't take up space in the room. My wife has a bookshelf next to one door, and they would both hit the bed if they swung inwards. The whole point of the french door is to be able to swing both out to disappear. If they swung inward, there would not be enough room. It would look silly and interrupt flow through the room.

Secondly, from a water standpoint, the outward swinging doors have a baseplate that routes the water out better. Any water that does gets past the door seal, will trickle to the baseplate and flow down under the door and away from the house. I think the inward swinging door completely depends on the seal. Any water that gets past the seal- let's say you open it during a storm for grab something on the deck, will flow inwards.

Those are my reasons and I'm sticking to them. I'd post pics, but my wife's laundry is all over the place.

[javadog]

If you do buy outward swinging French doors, make sure they are designed for that application. Installing a pair of inward swinging doors backwards might give you problems with the waterproofing. Same thing goes for windows. There's an inside, and an outside, and you don't want to confuse the two.

I once ran across a pair of windows that had been assembled incorrectly by the manufacturer. One section was fixed and one section was operable and they were installed as a unit, having come assembled that way from the factory. The factory got half of the assembly inside out, and that part of the window assembly lasted all of two years before failing.

[LEAKYSEALS951]

That's a good point. Get the highest quality door you can, and if it is outward swinging, it probably won't be in stock and will have to be custom built/ordered and it takes a while (at least in my case). Also be thinking in terms of which door (the right or left door) you want to be your primary opening door for better flow through the room.

[LWJ]

I have some out-swing French doors on my kitchen. They are fine. They do need exterior, outswing hinges as mentioned.

[rfuerst911sc]

One set of french doors will be in the kitchen the other in master bedroom with both exiting out to an exposed deck . On the master bedroom there is plenty of space for outswing but the kitchen the deck is narrow kind of like a hallway from two large decks .

In both cases there are obstructions to fully opening inswing . Kitchen there are base/wall cabinets on both sides and in bedroom there are dressers . So anything is going to be a compromise .

I'll need to think about this a little more to come up with the right solutions .

[drcoastline]

Originally Posted by javadog

One additional note regarding the posts above. Because French doors are almost exclusively a product used in homes, finding a set that has hinges suitable for opening outward may be a little tougher than finding a commercial door that opens out. The comment he made about doors swinging out wide enough to lay flat against the wall can be applied to those swinging inwards as well, if you have the wall space. Of course that also impacts the window treatment question.

At any rate, you have the knowledge to go forth and ask questions...

If you do select one of the bigger brands, you'll find that the big box stores tend to carry the lower-cost lines for the manufacturers. If cost is the main factor, that may be a place to start. I always use the Pella store. As a contractor, I can buy them for less money than the average consumer. They do sometimes offer sales and promotions, so that's something to consider as well.

Not to be adversarial Java but outward swing French doors are very common and can be bought off the shelf. I only made note of the hinges on a commercial door as the hinges are specifically designed for exterior exposure and exist. as opposed to having an interior hinge pin exposed. True an in swing door can lay flat against an interior wall but again, that eats up interior space, unless you keep moving furniture to allow the door to swing. What will inevitably happen is that door will stop being used. So plan a head and buy a single swing French door and save the cost. Or plan an out ward swing door if room is a factor.

Just my $.02

[LEAKYSEALS951]

Another thing to consider when ordering doors-
If you end up ordering your doors from the Box stores Lowes/Home Depot, check delivery options, especially if you are installing yourself. In one case, a custom order door I bought from (lowes I think) got delivered. They carried it right up to the opening with a smile on their face.

The second door I ordered (from Home Depot I think...) had a different policy. Delivery was to "The home" meaning, the end of the driveway. It turned getting the door onto the deck into a total nightmare and if something broke, it would have been all on my dime.

Depending on how you plan to have them installed, be aware of that.

Random gratuitous pics of when I put the door in (The deck had so much room compared to the bedroom an out swing was a no brainer Also- when I was talking about shedding water, I was thinking at my place in terms of standing snow piled and melting against the door. Probably not a problem in GA.

[rfuerst911sc]

I still think out swing doors are better in regards to water penetration . I just looked at the kitchen slider again and simulated an out swing door and there is plenty of room . Haven't made up my mind just pondering . Lets face it 99.9 % of the time you will only be using the main swinging door . The .1 % is opening both doors to drag something large in/out . I do appreciate the feedback guys .

[Crowbob]

I swing 'em inwards so's I can sometimes leave 'em open in the rain. Mute point if they open under a roof.

[kach22i]

What are you out-swing door guys doing to prevent the wind grabbing the door and slamming it shut?

You just don't leave the door open?

Do you use a hold open catch (door stop) or self closer mechanism as found in some commercial doors?

For me the point of having a door includes letting fresh air in. With in-swing doors you can use an out-swing screen door on the outside as found in older homes (like mine).

[LEAKYSEALS951]

When I did the outswing thing, I planned on getting stops/catches on the wall, or doing doorstops in the deck. I never got around to installing them though. Wind has never been an issue. If it was, there are enough end tables and planters on the deck to move around to hold the doors if needed, but I don't think we've ever needed to. We live in a windy area as well- so I surprised it hasn't been an issue now that I think about it.

The other issue where an in swing door does have an advantage is the screen door mounting. I bought a roller screen with a magnetic joiner in the middle (kind of wonky), but like the door stops, never needed to mount them. In fact- I had forgotten about them. I found them under the bed this summer and banished them to the garage.


Another FWIW: If the doorway is five feet, make sure to go to the stores to see if there is enough glass in the french door sections to make you happy. For example- many of the doors had very thick white borders and very small window sections. They were kind of ridiculous, but you can tell right off when you see them in the store. The door I installed in the pictures was 6 feet, and even it seems a little small in the glass area. If letting a lot of light in is a requirement, and there is no obvious win-win regarding in/out swing/one fixed door vs two operating doors, then the sliding glass doors might still have an edge over the french doors, even though the intent is to get away from the slider. Just something to think about. Take the Mrs. to the box store and look at the five foot wide french doors to make sure that's what you want. On my back porch I went with sliders to maximize the views. All depends on what you are trying to accomplish.

[look 171]

Out swinging French doors can be had, but the salesman need to know that and if he'd any good, will get you exactly what you need without problems down the road. The hinge usually has a pin to keep the bad guys from popping the hinge pin to enter your home. I really like Marvin doors.

Don't but the doors with the blinds between the glass. My vendor wouldn't sell then to me because he knows It will break and someone will complain about it and I get to fix it.

[rfuerst911sc]

I have convinced the wife the internal mini blind is not a good solution so we are past that . We both think out swing is the best solution for our situation . Now just need to carve out some time to visit some local lumber yards/shops . Being near Atlanta there is an abundance of suppliers so now have to look for a good value .
For those of you that have replaced sliders with french doors the finished opening of the slider should be the " rough " dimension for the french doors correct ? Our " finished " slider openings are 79 5/8 tall x 59 1/8 wide . So those are my " rough in " dimensions for the french doors right ?

[javadog]

Your rough opening dimensions should be the distance between the two studs in the wall on either side of the opening. When you pull out the sliding doors, you're going to gut everything back to those two studs.