As long as people are drinking expensive coffee the will be plenty of barista positions.
The toilets might not work, but they can make lattes out the wazoo so to speak.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1509516347.jpg


So ...
A 1st year apprentice will make the average Usa family income in their first year ...

And the education ( to degree ) is free , as is the health insurance .
Vacation pay and pension is not included in the hourly rate either , as that’s separately paid by the employer ...

Pretty good deal uh ???

This is a cool thing we do .
Get a Lot of good guys from Camp Pendleton...

http://www.helmetstohardhats.org

I started out in HVAC. My biggest regret is not getting a general business degree to go along with the trade school training. I knew going in that my end game was owning my own business. I have told my son that if he wants to go to trade school for electrical, plumbing, hvac, that's fine.... but he needs to get at a minimum an associates degree but I'd prefer a bachelor's degree.

The completion of apprenticeship here will net you a journeyman's ticket in your chosen trade. Complete the interprovincial exam at the end of your apprenticeship training and you are considered a Red Seal Journeyman and able to take your show on the road across Canada.
There is also the Blue Seal. This is basically a business certification and geared for people who will move to service management or run their own business. While it isn't a degree, it does makes you more attractive as a candidate moving up the ladder.

It's just the opposite in my area. Forty years ago the opened county-wide vo-tech schools that are bigger and better equipped and offer more classes than the shops in the local schools. There are also two two-year tech colleges within 20 minutes of here. Their biggest problem is overcoming the stigma of taking academic underachievers along with the students who are dedicated to a career path.

For business type degree college gives you the vocabulary. you have to work in the field to get any useful knowledge. if either of my kids opts to go in the trades I'm going to have them work in my accounting office for a year or so before they start. for any given business I think there is more to learn from working for a well run company in your chosen field before starting on your own than any amount of college courses. taking note of their policies, procedures, etc.

I hired a father, step-son painting company to do some detailed painting on my house recently in Sept. (white steel security doors and white vinyl windows).
I blew through 4 companies to find this company - referred by the sheet rock guy who did my new garage addition.
Anyway, their work is of such quality that they are booked until the last of Feb., '18.
I'm on their list to come back to rectify the previously botched job of painting the entire house at that time.
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I spoke with the step son (a college grad) who is enrolled in making this his career. I can see why. They can charge high dollar for their quality.
His step father proclaims to be OCD and has passed that onto his step son...they both love what they're doing.
The father said to me one day, "I love to paint."
I tend to be on the fastidious side and I was impressed by their work quality.
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I have a ME degree and worked in the avionics arena for 9 yrs. I left that arena in the '70s because aircraft inertial navigation systems overhaul (3 axis gyroscope based) were going electronic and I have a mental block in electronics.
I got a Calif. Contractor's license and began mowing lawns and pulling weeds on the commercial level.
I was in such demand that I was turning down work...again, I tend to be fastidious. Never advertised my business...only business cards. In my second year, I turned down a weekend (two day) commercial job that would have made me well over $8,000, net...in late 1970 dollars.
In my 10th year I did a $176, 000 small landscape job for a Sunset magazine spec home (multi-million $).
When they contacted me I asked how they found me..."Word of mouth. You have the kind of reputation that we want."
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My business ended up with 8 - 10 employees. One landscape client was the MBA who landed the original big money for Steve Jobs for Apple...they befriended me and wanted me to take over their 5 acre $8 million estate in the Los Altos, CA hills.
That was how my original business morphed into a property management business...they knew people who knew people, etc.
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I was born/raised in N. Dakota...a strong work ethic was at the heart of my upbringing, and was the main reason why I succeeded. That, and I was willing to ride the business horse in the direction that it was going. Also, I only took on contracts where I knew that I could leave my signature of good quality and value.
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I retired in '08 and sold my property management business (capital equipment and good will) to my field boss for several hundred thousand.
That year I also sold my 22 yr. Calif. home and property for $1.85 M profit.
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My original personal mantra was not to seek money so much, but to seek doing the best job that I was willing to do...and the money would come.
And it did.
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Just thought I'd share a little of my story.

Yup. With a business minor and mostly done with an MBA I would totally agree that experience is far more important than a degree. I don’t think many college programs provide anywhere near the perspective to operate a business.

In Oklahoma we have an lot Vo-Tech schools. They are funded by a percentage of the property taxes and that is different than the 4 year Universities. They don't have to compete for the piece of the pie from the regents funded at different levels each year by the legislature.

Some of the Vo-tech's have very nice campuses, and can teach everything from aircraft repair to Construction trades, welding and more. It is a great program.

I am glad you did. That was an impressive read.

Interesting discussion. I was set on being a mechanic or running a landscaping biz. Worked as a helper in a small shop and move from first string labor to driving the dump truck, running some equipment, lots of sod, mulch... loved it. In both cases the owners worked hard to convince me to stay in college. They were both ~40's then and I'll never forget them telling me about their bad back, arthritis, bad knees...

I have lots of respect for anyone that works hard and gets the job done at a high level. I think its great to get into a trade and master it. But I also think its a lot of work doing most trades. Not the guy holding up the shovel, but the guy in the crawlspace pulling cable, fixing pipes or whatever. There is some romance around blue collar work but its also a PITA. Its one thing to get out in the rain to fix something at home once in a while, its a different ballgame when you need to get out in the cold/wet/snow/mud... to earn a check. Much appreciation to the guys that do the hard work, not sure I could do it everyday.

One of my friends has a welding business. He works out of a workshop behind his house so his commute is a stroll through some trees to his shop. He specializes in wrought iron fences as a favorite, but his real money is making custom trailers. He has a client that has a need of trailers for the equipment they make. That company keeps trying to hire him full time but then he would have to commute. He enjoys working for himself but he does admit it is getting harder to move some of the steel pieces and he came real close to trapping himself behind a sheet of steel when trying to move it. It gets real hot in that barn in the 100 degrees summer days and just at arm's length away from a pool of a hot plasma of molten steel.

And a great story it was! I'm so OCD, I'd go in debt in most trades....

I worked for peanuts fresh out of college, and early in my IT career....job market was tough, and even highly desirable positions didn't have to pay squat. Did OK, but paid my dues...learning, doing what I loved though. Paid off many times over....on down the line.
Work ethic...there is no substitute....no matter which path one chooses....I can't compete with my parents even now :).

Some thoughts:

Our education system isn't keeping pace with the realities in industry. I think everyone who works in the trades should have some basic accounting knowledge. I can't tell you how many times I've seen someone good at their job (be it a doctor or painter) strike out on their own and fail because while they have the skills for their job, they lack the skills to run a business. I feel like community colleges/trade schools/etc. would benefit from having a separate program for running a small business. (Similarly, I think there should be a major of "professional athlete" at big universities that covers accounting, contract law, athletic training, and personal finance.)

About 10 years ago I took a welding class at the local community college for my own interest. First, I had to meet with the to be allowed to enroll Dean because I wasn't a student and the class wasn't "community education". I was reluctantly allowed to register. (Mind you, several hundred dollars a year of my property taxes support this institution, so I didn't appreciate the run-around.) I was told that the third degree was because there were only 10 slots in the class. Par of the agreement was that I was supposed to go to some new student orientation-- I didn't see any value in attending and skipped it. The first day of class 8 people attended. This would be the high watermark of attendance of the class. I found the instruction to be very easy and spoon-fed. The textbook, reference guide, and workbook cost $150 (packaged together). The textbook had been updated that year, but the workbook and reference guide still referred to the old version's page numbers. It made doing homework a challenge (many problems began with "refer to the figure at the top of page 115"--page 115 in the new text book was a different subject entirely!). Despite this, I found the class very easy. Other than my friend I took the class with, everyone else was aiming at being a professional welder. I felt we could have covered 3X the amount of material and still been comfortable. At the end of the semester, I was never sent a grade or told where it was posted. I eventually went to the school and was told my grade when a guidance counselor pulled it up on her screen. I noticed that me and my friend both got A's, the next highest grade was a C, and the other 7 grades were F's.

That is exactly right. Running a small business is hard, exacting work that not done properly (record keeping, taxes, overhead, insurance, etc) is an Autobahn to disaster.

I made both my kids take accounting, econ and finance classes in college even though there is a gap between the "real world" and school:

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I agree that it's not going to be something that makes you ready to start your own business but just like trade school, it gives you a foundation to build on. When I came out of trade school I was nowhere near ready to start servicing and installing the equipment I was dealing with. In essence I got the vocabulary in trade school. I got the skills in the field. I think having the business degree makes you more valuable to the employer ultimately.

I can tell you what it's like to be passed over for a position because you lacked certain business training. If I had even a good foundation I would have had a better chance of being promoted to sales with my former employer rather than them hiring from outside the company and then having me train that person to bid jobs. Now I guess you know why my former employer is my former employer. He wasn't a bad guy and I don't blame him for hiring someone with business experience.

I agree that there is a vacuum for experienced tradesmen. For years our local high schools have, progressively and largely eliminated any blue collar training. Who's going to perform the hands on work?

The 1 exception is automotive / mechanic work. That career field I wouldn't wish on anyone. Opportunities have long sailed out to sea.

I agree that there is a vacuum for experienced tradesmen. For years our local high schools have, progressively and largely eliminated any blue collar training. Who's going to perform the hands on work?

The 1 exception is automotive / mechanic work. That career field I wouldn't wish on anyone. Opportunities have long sailed out to sea.

my buddy (a cabinet maker by trade) referred to the vocational school as 'work release'. there is indeed a stigma about tech schools and the sooner we get past it and put real money into these schools the better off we will all be.

My father was an electrician and I always wanted to be a business type guy.
I wish I was smart enough back then to realize I should have done both.
I deal with a lot of trade guys (printing) and they are all doing very well.