When is a Porsche considered a kitcar/replica

[69porsche]

I came across a Beck Porsche that is offered for sale.....I see that the car is registered as a 1955 and titled as a 1955 Porsche....not a ding on the seller or whoever, but when does the car become considered a "Kitcar/replicar"?

I would take issue if I saw the car and not knowing ANYTHING about Porsches if the person said it was a 19XXXX insert whatever car year and not disclose it was indeed built within the last few years as an example and not mention it was built by Beck or whoever and was not built in the year it represents......those excaliber car kits come to mind from the 1970-1980's as well as Cobra cars

Obviously initiation is the most sincere of flattery and to obtain a car from that era roadworthy is out of the ballpark of many people, so it's not a dig on them....I just ask how do you present the car and how do you title or register it so it's not misleading. JUST CURIOUS.

[legion]

I was looking at 2005+ Caterhams a few years ago and saw that many of them titled as 195X-197X Lotuses. Particularly in the Northeast and in California. I think it mostly has to do with getting around various tax/emissions/safety laws. Also some states would not accept Caterham's non-standard VIN. Some states will not title kit cars.

[Evans, Marv]

I'm interested in input about this. I'm mulling over the idea of possibly buying a new Beck convertible replica at some point (if I sell my 911) and wonder about the process for registering it in CA.

[javadog]

It's real simple. If Porsche built it, it's a Porsche. Anything else, is not.

That won't stop some people from labeling cars otherwise, for all sorts of reasons.

I also don't think much of returning the odometer to zero on a restored car, which is a separate issue, but also contentious.

[69porsche]

Originally Posted by javadog

It's real simple. If Porsche built it, it's a Porsche. Anything else, is not.

That won't stop some people from labeling cars otherwise, for all sorts of reasons.

I also don't think much of returning the odometer to zero on a restored car, which is a separate issue, but also contentious.

Totally get it and no issues there...however if it's titled as a 55 Porsche and it's actually 2015 Beck where does one draw the line and does Porsche AG even care

[ossiblue]

Since car titling/registration varies by state, you are going to find kit cars titled as "authentic" rather than replicas. States like California make it somewhat tedious to properly register a kit car ( https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/vr/spcnsreg ) so some people may try to avoid the issues by securing a VIN from a real car to attach to the replica or otherwise present it as an actual vintage vehicle. Other states, especially those that don't issue titles to older cars, will register a car based on very loose standards, by comparison, and they are later sold in a state that will issue a title based on previous registration.

If a kit car has been titled/registered as an authentic vehicle, it becomes a point of honesty by the seller to reveal that fact, and a point of obligation for the buyer to do his homework.

For Marv, once a kit car has been properly titled/registered in Ca., there is no special obstacle for a subsequent buyer to register it he would any other vehicle. The hoop jumping comes with the original builder.

[69porsche]

Turning the odometer on any car is fraudulent...there is no gray area on that matter

[javadog]

Originally Posted by 69porsche

Totally get it and no issues there...however if it's titled as a 55 Porsche and it's actually 2015 Beck where does one draw the line and does Porsche AG even care

It's not a '55 Porsche, it's a Beck. Porsche probably doesn't like it but they don't go out of their way to track people down and sue them. I've heard that Ferrari takes these things more seriously, largely because the fakes in the Ferrari world often start as "lesser" Ferraris and the replicas can't be quite indistinguishable from the authentic cars.

I would never represent a kit car as an original and there's not much the same between a 550 and a Beck, so only people that know nothing about cars would confuse the two.

Personally, I would not even run a Porsche badge on a kit car.

[Evans, Marv]

L.J. I'm not thinking of buying a used replica in CA . I'm thinking of going to the Beck (Special Edition/Beck) place in Wisconsin (or whichever State) and ordering a new replica 356 convertible or Speedster. That means I'd have to bring it here & register it.

[T77911S]

Originally Posted by javadog

It's real simple. If Porsche built it, it's a Porsche. Anything else, is not.

That won't stop some people from labeling cars otherwise, for all sorts of reasons.

I also don't think much of returning the odometer to zero on a restored car, which is a separate issue, but also contentious.

his title is misleading. it should perhaps be "when is a kit car no longer a kit car"
Porsche is always Porsche. some might like to say it is not when you drop a non Porsche motor in there.

I don't have an issue with zeroing the speedo as long as it is completely rebuilt, the tile will have always be marked as "odo does not represent actual mileage of car" though.

[flipper35]

In CA, my understanding of SB100 is that the car gets registered as what it is a replica of and then is held to those standards as far as title/emissions goes. I haven't kept up with SB100 though so things very well could have changed.

In the Cobra replica community many have registered theirs as a 1966 Ford because that is what it recreates even though it is incorrect but each states requirement is different. Mine was in CA before SB100 and is registered as a 1971 because at the time CA required replicas to be registered the same as the engine block for emissions purposes and transferred to WI as a 1994 based on the MSO. Go figure.

Gordon, I think your question is backwards. When is a kit/replica considered a Porsche (or any other brand).

Shelby recognizes their own replicas as real Shelby Cobras and Superformance (maybe) replicas as a Shelby but not Kirkham who builds the bodies for Shelby.

[tadd]

Given the various 'collectable' cars, things like 356s, VWs, ect that are rebuilt from a vin tag using near all aftermarket parts (cause whoever don't make them anymore) IMHO its about who did the original engineering.

A Xerox copy of a 356 is a Porsche. Doesn't matter if Porsche made it. Porsche did design it.

Take a 917 copy. Those Kraftwerks are supposed to be built from the original plans. If the builder goes out of his way to follow the Porsche engineering, its a Porsche. If they redesign anything, it isn't a Porsche anymore.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by tadd

A Xerox copy of a 356 is a Porsche. Doesn't matter if Porsche made it. Porsche did design it.

Take a 917 copy. Those Kraftwerks are supposed to be built from the original plans. If the builder goes out of his way to follow the Porsche engineering, its a Porsche. If they redesign anything, it isn't a Porsche anymore.

I couldn't disagree more. If Porsche didn't build it, it isn't a Porsche.

A Rolex not made by Rolex is not a Rolex, etc.
A Rembrandt painting not painted by Rembrandt is not a Rembrandt.
Etc.

[drkshdw]

Originally Posted by javadog

I couldn't disagree more. If Porsche didn't build it, it isn't a Porsche.

A Rolex not made by Rolex is not a Rolex, etc.
A Rembrandt painting not painted by Rembrandt is not a Rembrandt.
Etc.

What about VW bodies built by Karmann. Are they not VW's? What about Deusenbergs?

Tiffany never made any of the lamps that bear his name but does that mean they aren't Tiffany lamps? Because you pay for that name even though he had absolutely nothing to do with them.

What about Rodin? He never sculpted any of the sculptures we know as his. Are they not his?

There is a huge debate about authorship that is going on in a FB group I'm in right now and there are so many different aspects that you can't compare apples to oranges. Suffice it to say that I don't disagree with you but I also don't necessarily agree either. Depends on the situation.

[scottmandue]

I am in no way an expert but suspected they go with engine block? Isn't it illegal to cut and use a VIN plate?

I would have no problem buying a replica 356 or Cobra but would not consider it the real deal.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by javadog

I couldn't disagree more. If Porsche didn't build it, it isn't a Porsche.

A Rolex not made by Rolex is not a Rolex, etc.
A Rembrandt painting not painted by Rembrandt is not a Rembrandt.
Etc.

Weren’t boxsters built in Finland by some other company other than Porsche?

I get your point though. Maybe sold by or commissioned by is a better description ?

Or maybe the people who think anything but a 911 isn’t a real Porsche we’re right

[javadog]

Originally Posted by drkshdw

What about VW bodies built by Karmann. Are they not VW's? What about Deusenbergs?

Tiffany never made any of the lamps that bear his name but does that mean they aren't Tiffany lamps? Because you pay for that name even though he had absolutely nothing to do with them.

What about Rodin? He never sculpted any of the sculptures we know as his. Are they not his?

With respect to a car with a body by Karmann, or Reutter, etc. I'd still label the car as a VW or Porsche, or whatever. The reason being that Porsche, VW, etc. contracted with these companies to do the work on their behalf. Car manufacturers are really assemblers of parts that were largely made by other companies.

As for Tiffany, he directed his employees to make the lamps. I have no problem with that. After all, Ferry Porsche didn't help actually build his cars, he hired people to do that for him. The important distinction is that these objects were caused to be made by the employees of the guy with the name on the building. That's quite different than someone unrelated, building a copy of something he did not design, in a time and place far removed from what he's copying.

Rodin did the designs for his sculptures, then had assistants copy them into larger forms and cast them. That's pretty standard practice in that business. I would have no problem distinguishing a Rodin sculpture (made by his people in the period where he ran the company) from one that was made by an individual or company that had no relationship to Rodin, or his company.

JR

[javadog]

Originally Posted by wayner

Weren’t boxsters built in Finland by some other company other than Porsche?

Yep. Porsche hired them to do that for them. They had other deals, with other companies, over the years to build part or all of a variety of other cars.

[craigster59]

Originally Posted by javadog

I couldn't disagree more. If Porsche didn't build it, it isn't a Porsche.

A Rolex not made by Rolex is not a Rolex, etc.
A Rembrandt painting not painted by Rembrandt is not a Rembrandt.
Etc.

And a flute without holes is not a flute, and a donut without a hole is a Danish. Hey, somebody had to say it!

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by tadd

Take a 917 copy. Those Kraftwerks are supposed to be built from the original plans. If the builder goes out of his way to follow the Porsche engineering, its a Porsche.

I respect your opinion given an extreme similarity to the original. However, it cannot be called a real Porsche. I see it as black and white.

As to the Beck. Great is was registered as a 55 Porsche. That will keep the EPA off the owner's back. Otherwise, it's a replica.

I struggle with the vintage car that originated with only a mangled chassis and parts are hung on that corrected chassis. Does a chassis that has 30% vitality before resto reflect a valid car?

Originally Posted by javadog

Personally, I would not even run a Porsche badge on a kit car.

I would if the car was a tribute, which the Beck is. FWIW, not arguing 'cause I usually lose in arguments with you.