Big, fast SUVs (Cayenne, Range Rover, X5M) - Yes or No?
 

I am torn and need help!

As a diehard, life-long performance car guy that completely buys into Colin Chapman's mantra of "Simplify, then add lightness" for going fast I should hate big, fast and fat (5000lbs+) SUVs but instead I have come to love them as daily drivers. The comfort they offer from their long-travel suspension, long wheelbase chassis, tall tires with plenty of sidewall height, combined with luxurious interiors and lots of HP/TQ make them perfect for eating up miles, seeing over top of traffic congestion and going where you want to go with whatever you want to bring (skis, bikes, passengers, Ikea runs, etc) at speeds that a decade ago only a sports car could match! A 958 Cayenne Turbo S is as fast and grippy in practically every measure as a 996TT while offering infinitely more practicality and a lot more safety.

Of course none of these big rigs should ever go anywhere near a race track, unless towing a track car on a trailer, and admittedly they aren't all that much fun to hustle down a twisty road at anything over 8/10ths, but that is why we also own 911s, Caymans or other weekend cars. The big pigs also eat a lot of premium gas but at the cost of vehicle entry ($75k+ new) this is more of a social/green/guilt issue that actually being able to afford the regular fill-ups.

I appreciate that part of my love for the speedy SUV comes from the environment I live in which is that most of the roads I drive are straight and not particularly well paved, we have snow for more months of the year that I care to admit and the speeding laws and socially accepted behaviours mean that I can't drift sideways in a 500hp JDM drifter on the way to work.....even if I wanted to. IMO, envirmonnet plays a big role in the daily driver decision - most of us would choose a different daily vehicle for life in Manhattan vs Miami vs Aspen vs Billings MT and my daily conditions more closely match Aspen or Billings. If I lived in NYC a metro pass or BMW M240 xDrive might be the transport of choice.

Plenty of 'car guys' say a true enthusiast would ditch the high-CG SUV and get a 'driver's car' like an E63 AMG Wagon, M3 with a roof rack or even a new Audi S5 Sportback, but these vehicles are less practical, more susceptible to bending wheels in potholes or scraping front spoilers on parking blocks, offer less ground clearance for deep snow and ice ruts and unless driving/cornering above 8/10ths I fail to see how they are dynamically superior; instrumented road tests suggest that the top-rung SUVs (Cayenne Turbo, Range Rover SVR, BMW X5M) have cornering grip and braking performance to match most of the uber wagons and sedans.

So how do the rest of you feel? Is a big, fast, luxurious SUV totally ridiculous for someone that claims to be a 'car guy' and appreciates exceptional chassis dynamics or are they the best way to get from A to B on public roads in safety, style and comfort with your family onboard?

*All of the above assumes you also have a fun, small and light car in the garage :) *

i thought they were ridiculous - until i drove one
they are very capable drivers, in all road conditions - conditions i would NEVER take the 911 out in. My wifey even liked the pepper wagon so much, i'm half on the lookout for one for her

my friend had the diesel Cayenne. it was a hoot. damn fast. i wanted it.

now he has a Macan, which he loves even more.

there is something to them. it doesnt fit my life that great, or i would seriously consider one.

i think you should "simplify" :)

We had a Ford Exlporer with the 4.0L (2001). It was practical and useful. We've gotten rid of that. I just spent almost 6 weeks with a Cayenne loaner. It had sport-chrono, but was just a V-6 model (Platinum edition). I didn't put it into sport mode for the first 4 weeks. I figured "why bother". The way it drove when not in sport mode other than having more grip and being more comfortable and with a stiffer more confidence inspiring suspension, didn't seem much different from the Explorer. I finally tried it in sport mode. Between the slight remapping of the throttle pedal and the difference in the way the auto trans worked in sports mode, it transformed the Cayenne from something that was basically a super-nice Explorer to the kind of practical SUV that you would expect Porsche to make. And it didn't even have the V-8 or Turbo. Would I love a Turbo Cayenne? Sure if I had that sort of spare cash laying around. A cayenne doesn't look like a big vehicle from the outside, but it's plenty roomy on the inside and feels bigger from the inside when navigating tight parking lots or parking garages. I think that when/if we go that route, it'll probably be a Macan that we get. It should still have more space, but be more compact than a Cayenne which will be nice, especially since it'll be the missus driving it mostly.

I remember when the Cayenne first came out. I believe there was an article or maybe a post on the board or something where Porsche had a Cayenne turbo on an autocross course with a late-80s 3.2L Carrera, an the cayenne turbo was besting the carrera around the course.

Add Volvo XC90 T8 Twin Engine to that list. I just got one in November, in R-Design trim, loving it. 400HP and almost 500 ft lbs of torque available from just after the second you touch the gas. I am getting between 25 and 95 MPG (that's not a typo) depending on how I drive it. Never thought I'd enjoy this car so much. The Polestar tune is pending approval for the USA...would bump to 421HP and over 500 ft lbs of torque. Good times!

Yes I have a **proper** sports car in the garage.

And I did own and track a Lotus Elise for awhile...the lightness for the sake of lightness thing is good in theory but somewhat overrated in my opinion. My fat pig 996 is way more fun on the track than my supercharged Elise ever was, YMMV.

Personally I don't get the "all sport, no utility" SUV thing. So many on the market that are 'big in the front, small in the back". But I'm definitely in the minority as they seem to sell tons of those rigs.

I can tow my 996 to and from the track on an open aluminum trailer w/ the XC90 no problem...have not bought that yet but thinking of it. I have done the big pickup truck and enclosed track car trailer thing in the past...it sucks driving around a big 1/2 or 3/4 ton pickup all the time at 13MPG so you can tow to the track 6-8 weekends per year. I'm done with that.

I think you are pointing out a semi sad fact about real road driving conditions today. That is over not well maintained and crowded with traffic roads. In such conditions, comfort takes priority over performance. Comfortable seats, good air conditioning and heat, reasonable quiet, good entertainment system, etc...they all take precedence over max G force or 1/4 mile times. Oh, one wants reasonable power under the hood, mainly used to reach blend in speeds while still on the on ramp...

But really, being the fastest out there isn't all that important when we're talking about the driving conditions many of us face. Oh we all drool over fast published lap times around various tracks, and the cars at the top of the list are wonderful machines indeed. But to use one on real streets, roads, and highways? More comfort for me, please.

Not an SUV fan...I prefer something a bit smaller. Thus my preference for the Mustang as a compromise car. It works well for roads and freeways. For the town shopping chores, Cindy's Camry serves well.

^^^An important point...where can you really enjoy a sports car anymore other than at the track or autocross? The opportunities will be less and less as time goes on. Even where I live in Colorado even the small mountain roads are so clogged with cars all the time the opportunities to enjoy such a vehicle are extremely rare anymore.

At one point several years ago I had both a 2008 Porsche Cayenne GTS and a 2009 Mercedes C63 AMG. The Cayenne was fast, comfy, handled amazing, had great steering and brakes, and was a LOT of fun.....for an SUV. But I found that over time, given the choice between the GTS and the AMG, I choose the AMG. Why? Because it did everything better than the GTS without compromises. That's the big problem that I see about the uber performance SUVs, you can just get a sport sedan that does everything better. If you lived somewhere with absolutely terrible roads, and terrible weather conditions, and needed to tow a small boat or trailer, then the SUV makes sense. But you can get a sports sedan with better performance, better MPG, equal comfort, and equal practicality. To me, that's why the super SUVs don't really make much sense.

I have a Cayenne only because my wife didn't want me to get another 911.

They are admittedly comfy, and I can put useless stuff in the back. And in the rare event that I have to haul my kids, they all fit, plus the wife. But 17MPG!

But I'd still rather have bought a 997.2 for a daily driver.

Would love a Trackhawk but they only seat 5. The SRT Durango looks pretty sweet and has 3 rows. All are expensive. The PepperWagons are pretty nice and used ones are affordable. I don't know that I would want a BMW made in this century and no Mercedes made in any century.

My wife wants a Panamera when kid #1 is out of the house. She didn’t really like my Cayenne, she prefers cars.

We ordered a new Macan right at one year ago. My wife really wanted it. We took delivery in March and she still loves it. I drove it to Enid, OK which is 90 miles from our house. I got 24 MPG running 75 MPH and it is super quiet at speed. I have driven it around town some and it really handles a lot like a 911. It for sure is heavier, but it has little to no body roll.

We had one factory recall done for some possible fuel leak and they gave us a brand new Panamara. That thing is huge. Very nice car but dang it is long.

We test drove a Cayenne and it was just ponderous feeling, but I don't ever drive a big car.

I came pretty close to buying a Panamera S instead of the T8 XC90 Volvo. In the end I just couldn't stomach daily driving it in road salt and mag chloride in the winter, such a beautiful car. Someday I'll live somewhere where weather has less of an influence on the cars I choose for daily driving

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I think you need to experience these vehicles on a track or in a spirited driving situation. I rode along on our prior autocross track, think 1.1 miles road course, in a Cayenne Turbo S and a Panamera. The driver placed in the upper quartile of times for those days. In other words he beat other drivers in sports cars like 911, 986, 996, 987, BMWs, etc. The Cayenne was a blast around the track. I drove the Panamera and it was fun also, even with the 6 cylinder. The 8 speed PDK transmission ran to red line and held gears before matching revs to downshift.

And I've been chased by and followed Cayenne's on some of our club drives through twisty roads, up and downhill. Those "trucks" can handle.

Long story short, these vehicles are Porsches. They handle and drive exactly how you would want them to perform. Would you run these are your dedicated track car? Probably not, but they will easily outperform any normal road you take them on.

I had a 2013 base Cayenne and loved every day driving it. Comfortable, practical, luxurious, and had the same chassis dynamic as my 993. I'd have another one or preferably a Macan any day.

I live in a very snowy area. My road is frequently not plowed. I've had RWD, 4WD, 4x4's and FWD.

Any front wheel drive car with good snow tires is equal to a 4x4 or an AWD on the road. Off-road they are not equal, but on the road I cannot justify a 4x4. I simply don't need one.

Drive what you like. But very people live in an area with enough snow to justify the upgrade.

We are on our second Cayenne Turbo, this on is a 958. Best car we have owned. Super comfortable, great sport seats, drives like a sports car... and not much will out run it.

My Cayenne Turbo is good at everything I want it to be.
cheap (955 turbo's are at the bottom of the depreciation curve)
very acceptable acceleration to get going
very good braking (on a dangerously short stop my worry is the car behind me, not in front)
able to carry as much as I ever need
seats 5 comfortably, (more would be better)
very heavy=safe in a collision
plush/comfortable enough
air lift to navigate high snow
looks good
well built and easy enough to work on
And I have a 930 cab for the sunny days
A dinosaur SUV is a great idea

Coming from a man that loves high-performance 911s, correct?

Jeff's quote pretty much sums up my feelings for uber SUVs.

This thread isn't about strictly needing AWD or not, rather is an uber SUV (big ones with over 400hp) a worthwhile alternative to the cars that could be used in their place. So far there is lots of love here for the SUVs and no E63 Wagon or CTS-V wagon owners chiming in, which I suppose is also reflected in the vehicle sales numbers.

I have an Audi S8, does that count? I’ll take my S8 over my former Cayenne all day long. Bigger backseat, huge trunk, better to drive, better MPG. Pretty easy decision for me.