Another job offer situation...

[widebody911]

I've been doing contract work (Sr Devops Engineer) for a medium-sized retailer since April of last year. I've been knocking it out of the park and they want to convert me to FTE, but we're stuck on price. My boss, who is in his early 30's and ambitious, is rather new to the whole management thing but you can tell from listening to him talk that he really wants to climb the food chain. He actually got the head count approval, but he refuses to just come right out and offer a number: he wants me to tell him what I should be making. I really, really like the contractor money, but going FTE would get me cheaper health insurance and other benefits, of which right now I have none. (I have health insurance, but it's literally more than my mortgage)

I dug up some salary surveys (and I know the boss has too) and most of them come in a lot less than I'm making now, and some of them even less than I was making at my last job.One aspect that makes coming up with a number interesting is the "devops" job description is kind of fluid; ask 10 people what a devops engineer does and you'll get 4 different answers and 6 blank stares. It's a mix of developer, build engineer, and sysadmin.

Another guy on the team is leaving in a few days; my boss has already started interviewing offshore candidates for that position. I can see him trying to pull a fast one and lowball me so I don't take the position and thus has justification for another offshore body. I would estimate the current technical staff is ~75% H1-B, and that's just the workforce here in California - I don't know how many offshore bodies they have. Another interesting observation I've made is they seem to have a lot of turnover. There are a few people who have been there a long time - like 15-20 years, while everyone else seems to have been there less than 5 years.

From previous experience in negotiating pay, it's been my observation that the first one to state a number generally loses. I know that's not always the case, as with my current position I gave them a number they would have to exceed in order to get me to even talk and that actually worked out well.

So it's a bit of a pickle. I like the job, but I don't want to take a huge pay cut just to satisfy a manager's ambitions. My game plan at this point to write up a sort of "proposal" with the number that I'd like, and justifying it by listing my experience, what I've been doing for the company so far, and what my extant peers in the industry are making.

[KFC911]

Only you can answer this one Thom....find a # you'd be comfortable with and add 20-100%

I have no clue, but best of luck though!

[SeanPizzle]

Talk to your CPA first. I have an LLC and I expect the new tax plan to be very advantageous for me. Plus SEPIRA allows you to put up to $52K into a tax deferred retirement account every year. Yes, I pay $1600 a month in health insurance, but it's a tax deduction. Most employers are paying that or more for each employee and only cover the first $800-1000 month anyway.

If you are doing Chef/Puppet orchestration/automation stuff and know anything about cloud bursting or hybrid cloud, AWS certs, etc, you should be in the $150-175K range in our local market. Locally, Delta Dental, CA-ISO, Blue Shield, UCD Med are all looking for these skills.

Sean

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by SeanPizzle

you should be in the $150-175K range in our local market.

This tickles me. Ohio is a fly-over state as you Californians say. $45k is a good job. I kid you not.

I will say that when I had a real job paying $100k out of Chicago the company calculated the total benefit at about $160k.

[Captain Ahab Jr]

They want to convert you to full time and not you asking

Just say you are really interested but they would need to make you an offer you can't refuse

Ball is in their court now, if you are as good as you say, they will know that and if they don't will soon realise it when they interview other people.

You have the advantage as you, your knowledge/experience and how you work is known to them which is worth a lot.

[SeanPizzle]

Originally Posted by Bob Kontak

This tickles me. Ohio is a fly-over state as you Californians say. $45k is a good job. I kid you not.

I will say that when I had a real job paying $100k out of Chicago the company calculated the total benefit at about $160k.

Even in Ohio, this job would be well over six figures because it's a skill set in demand.

100:160K sounds like the right ratio of burdened cost with UI, FICA/Payroll taxes, Retirement Contributions and Insurance.

[944 S2]

You could try Glassdoor as a reference for salaries ranges. The direct position also offers job security I suppose and perhaps other benefits like a retirement plan?

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by SeanPizzle

Even in Ohio, this job would be well over six figures because it's a skill set in demand.

No argument.

However, as Garret Morriss said in response to Mick Jagger's lyrics, Black girls just wanna get effed all night "Just where are these girls, Mr. Jagger?"

No disrespect to anyone. It sucks here. Ain't no jobs.

[Rick Lee]

My experience with offshore developers is that the communication and cultural issues are so bad, that companies make that mistake once and then figure it's cheaper to pay a developer here 4-5x as much than to deal with the BS from cheaping out on offshore developers and then having to redo it all themselves anyway. My job was selling custom development, which was done in India for $25/hr. At trade shows I had to take one of the H1B guys around with me. He was a Sikh, wore a turban, had a full beard, heavy accent, you know the type. The guy was as smart and articulate as the day is long. But when a prospect, who'd had a bad experience with offshore developers, saw us coming, it was a lost cause, no matter the price.

[Alan A]

If they are doing the H1B to fill positions game you really really really don’t want to be there.
They won’t pay.
Run don’t walk.

The turnover should have told you that already though.

[asphaltgambler]

To me it seems that they're asking you to come down to their level. Why? If you think FTE is 'secure' - its only secure in the public sector and even then it's dicey.

Also the salary game being played is enough to see it most likely wouldn't be a good fit either.

[Rick Lee]

If the hiring mgr already knows what you make as a contractor, and, if he's really trying to hire you on, he has to know exactly what he needs to offer to make you even think about it. If it's less $$, then he'd better have a great sales pitch on really great benefits. Unless he thinks you're desperate for those benefits, he can't seriously think he's going to get you for less. And there is zero stability in that biz. It may not be hard to find your next gig, but we all know you can find your passwords and bldg. keys not working first thing any morning of the week.

[930addict]

Originally Posted by SeanPizzle

..

If you are doing Chef/Puppet orchestration/automation stuff and know anything about cloud bursting or hybrid cloud, AWS certs, etc, you should be in the $150-175K range in our local market. Locally, Delta Dental, CA-ISO, Blue Shield, UCD Med are all looking for these skills.

Sean

This. As a datapoint, I'm a senior system software engineer with 17 years IT experience and do devops work in a Microsoft shop for a 30k+ employee company in the bay area (Silicon Valley). I deal with a lot of automation/software packaging/sysadmin/desktop engineering type stuff. I'm salaried at $165k and my benefits package comes to around $40k. So I think Sean's estimate is on the money.

[widebody911]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

If the hiring mgr already knows what you make as a contractor

That is an interesting point, but he claims to not know what I make as a contractor, and he claims to not know what my teammates are making. I found that odd. The only number he has is the ceiling for my position, which he won't divulge.

[widebody911]

Originally Posted by 930addict

This. As a datapoint, I'm a senior system software engineer with 17 years IT experience and do devops work in a Microsoft shop for a 30k+ employee company in the bay area (Silicon Valley).[...]salaried at $165k

At that salary, you probably have to rent a room in an RV on the street!

As a contractor, I'm making $155k, but no benefits.

[930addict]

Originally Posted by widebody911

At that salary, you probably have to rent a room in an RV on the street!

As a contractor, I'm making $155k, but no benefits.

LOL! You are not far off! My pay does not go far in the bay area, but I have the best of both worlds. I live out of state and telecommute. I'm only there a few days a month. I stay with family when I'm in town.

[KFC911]

Originally Posted by widebody911

....

As a contractor, I'm making $155k, but no benefits.

As an ancient datapoint....contractors tend to make significantly more than FT...depending upon needs and expertise....even if some positions last years. $200/hr was the highest I knew about, $100/hr would have been more typical....TOTALLY negotiable. My corporations had hardened in stone salary ranges....might be 25k difference between top to bottom...your hiring manager knows exactly what they are. I was a systems programmer/networking guy never got a raise unless they raised the top end of the bracket the last part of my career...but that did NOT suck either....I retired @ 48 and never looked back....benefits matter

Look him straight in the eye and say $150k is what it will take....or whatever # you like...best of luck!

I was a techies' techie...top of my field....had the management carrot dangled when I was 25....didn't want to do that....

Had titles like Lead, Principal, and Assistant VP along the way....they don't matter....these were huge corporations....I retired instead of going to work for HP

[Jandrews]

Originally Posted by widebody911

That is an interesting point, but he claims to not know what I make as a contractor, and he claims to not know what my teammates are making. I found that odd. The only number he has is the ceiling for my position, which he won't divulge.

Maybe he only knows the rate that his company is paying your contracting firm? I.e. they are paying your firm $100/hr for you, but he doesn't know if you, personally are making $70/hr or $90/hr?

JA

[KFC911]

I contracted with IBM early in my career....I only recieved half of what IBM was paying/hr....independent contracting is a different matter....I worked side-by-side with some for years and years....they would be axed first, but there is NO security being FT either....just benefits and more warning.

[Neilk]

Originally Posted by KC911

As an ancient datapoint....contractors tend to make significantly more than FT...depending upon needs and expertise....even if some positions last years. $200/hr was the highest I knew about, $100/hr would have been more typical....TOTALLY negotiable. My corporations had hardened in stone salary ranges....might be 25k difference between top to bottom...your hiring manager knows exactly what they are. I was a systems programmer/networking guy never got a raise unless they raised the top end of the bracket the last part of my career...but that did NOT suck either....I retired @ 48 and never looked back....benefits matter

Look him straight in the eye and say $150k is what it will take....or whatever # you like...best of luck!

I was a techies' techie...top of my field....had the management carrot dangled when I was 25....didn't want to do that....

Had titles like Lead, Principal, and Assistant VP along the way....they don't matter....these were huge corporations....I retired instead of going to work for HP

Well I need to talk to you...,

Our company got bought out and is now owned by a private equity firm. They have been squeezing us dry, low raises, more work, and bosses who get off on showing off how they are keeping costs down. I am the most knowledgeable and senior person in our group and tired of the crap. I have enough money that I could retire tomorrow if I wanted to, but still would like to work for a few more years, just more on my terms. I like the remaining people in the team, but would really just like to finish out my projects (so I don't shaft my already overworked team) and take the summer off and re-evaluate everything. In the meantime, I am thinking about how I can extract the maximum amount of money to make it worth my while staying there. Decisions, decisions...