LMP1 Is Dead, Long Live LMP1

[Captain Ahab Jr]

This what I like about motorsport, constantly evolving,

FIA today announced,

FIA World Endurance Championship

A summary of the ongoing discussions regarding the 2020 Technical Regulations for the highest category of FIA WEC was presented as follows:

Targeted budget of one quarter of current LMP1 budgets.
Freedom of design for brands based on a ‘Hypercar’ concept.
A plan to encourage the participation of female drivers in the FIA World Endurance Championship was approved.

Details on both points above will be presented during the week of the 24 Hours of Le Mans.

A proposal to modify the length of the Sebring competition from 1500 miles to 1000 miles with effect from the 2019 competition was approved.

From Autosport,

The rules, which have the working title of GTP, will allow for manufacturers to give their prototype machinery the look of one of their road-going sportscars.

The intent of the new rulebook will be to maintain the current level of performance but at a substantially reduced cost.

There will be a lower level of hybrid technology allowed and it is expected that manufacturers will be able to choose a spec energy-retrieval system rather than developing their own.

The manufacturers around the table during the formulation of the new rules were Toyota, McLaren, Aston Martin, Ferrari and Ford.

[Aragorn]

Just bringing this one back because I missed it when it was originally posted. Like the idea of having production looking based prototypes. Seems similar to the mid-late 90's McLaren/Porsche/Mercedes.

Caps allow an even playing field. One of the problems with the ALMS era and P1/LMP1 class cars were the budgets. I would have like to have seen some of the smaller privateer teams with equivalent machinery as Audi. They put up a good fight but couldn't compete with the larger reserves. Seems like without caps, one manufacturer comes in and spends to win which kills the field.

Never understood the whole hybrid thing. Didn't seem to make the racing any better and don't really think it saved that much fuel. Diesel was the same thing. The inaudible whoosh of the Audi's on track as they passed wasn't as exciting as hearing a Porsche or Aston scream by.

Just my .02 cents.

[Noah930]

Slightly off-topic, but also slightly related question: Why doesn't Porsche sell the 919 to privateers?

In the past, the 917 and 956/962 (and 935 in its various iterations) were sold to privateers. That made it worth Porsche's while ($$$$) to develop the cars. And it also allowed privateers to fill the fields of sportscar races with Porsches, thereby helping to cement Stuttgart's racing legacy.

With the 919, why not sell it to privateers to campaign? Is the car, itself, too complicated for that to happen? Is the tech too proprietary? Are there too few privateers with enough money to race at the LMP1 level? Are the regulations changing too rapidly, thereby making the 919 obsolete? Wouldn't factories (whether Audi, Porsche, or Toyota) selling last year's LMP1 cars/technology to privateers help to fill the fields with LMP1 entries, while also reducing costs for the privateers (and factories)? To a certain degree, it works even in F1, where Ferrari/Mercedes/Renault/Honda sell their engines (sorry, power units), to non-factory teams. That reduces the cost of engine development programs (programmes) for the privateers.

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by Noah930

Slightly off-topic, but also slightly related question: Why doesn't Porsche sell the 919 to privateers?

In the past, the 917 and 956/962 (and 935 in its various iterations) were sold to privateers. That made it worth Porsche's while ($$$$) to develop the cars. And it also allowed privateers to fill the fields of sportscar races with Porsches, thereby helping to cement Stuttgart's racing legacy.

With the 919, why not sell it to privateers to campaign? Is the car, itself, too complicated for that to happen? Is the tech too proprietary? Are there too few privateers with enough money to race at the LMP1 level? Are the regulations changing too rapidly, thereby making the 919 obsolete? Wouldn't factories (whether Audi, Porsche, or Toyota) selling last year's LMP1 cars/technology to privateers help to fill the fields with LMP1 entries, while also reducing costs for the privateers (and factories)? To a certain degree, it works even in F1, where Ferrari/Mercedes/Renault/Honda sell their engines (sorry, power units, to non-factory teams. That reduces the cost of engine development programs (programmes) for the privateers.

They told me in the museum what those things cost, i forgot the details , 919 Hybrid, Think F1 level of costs, they are stupid expensive.

Porsche poured 200 million USD a year in the 919 racing programme..
That is more then many of the F1 teams. (Top 5 excluded)

[nota]

with the new 3 motors per year F-1 rules
one would think an f-1 based sports car class could work
with current f-1 motors

[Won]

If it's anything like the GT1 class, bring it on!

I have no doubt that the new "Taycan" benefited from years of data collected from the 9R9s. Just read a quote from a Rolls Royce engine design chief that their participation in pre-war air racing achieved more in a couple of years than what they would have in years of normal R&D. As for racing, it was quite fun when Audi and Porsche were passing and re-passing on track with different deployment strategies, etc.

As to why no privateers, I think the answer is pretty much all of the above.

[rcooled]

Originally Posted by Noah930

Is the car, itself, too complicated for that to happen? Is the tech too proprietary? Are there too few privateers with enough money to race at the LMP1 level?

Yes, all of the above ↑

[Captain Ahab Jr]

Originally Posted by Won

If it's anything like the GT1 class, bring it on!

Ahhh, those were the days!

[astrochex]

GTP days were not bad either,

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by Captain Ahab Jr

FIA today announced,

A plan to encourage the participation of female drivers in the FIA World Endurance Championship was approved.

IOW, modify rules, endorsements, coverage, and sponsorship to promote less-talented drivers based on only gender, thereby manipulating the races making LMP1 about as legitimate as professional wrestling or worse.
I wonder if they'll carry it so far that they actually pick a minority and a female to GIVE championships to, like the NHRA did.

Discrimination is still discrimination, even if the motive is just more $$$$$.

[kevin993]

The LMP2 RS Spyders were the last Porsche prototype that will likely be sold to privateers (at least in the foreseeable future). For that reason, they will become extremely valuable. I wish I would have snapped one up a few years ago.

No way you'll ever see a 919 in private hands.

[svandamme]

Also think of the complexity involved to tune those cars.
Tuning a petrol engine is 1 thing, but I suspect the variables on a 919 hybrid are exponentially bigger if you ask me..

Then the amount of parts needed to support a team It's engine, exchaust recovery system, wheel brake generators, Liquid cooled L-Ion batteries, wheel motors, etc etc ,it's all unique and if Porsche were to sell one , the price Porsche would have to charge to support that team would be equally big as the purchase price ..

I'm pretty sure somebody at least asked Porsche, and i'm sure they did the calculation exercise and gave that somebody a quote.... at whic htime he probably had a mild coronary and mumbles, never mind, i'll find something else to do with my time.

[Won]

Originally Posted by Captain Ahab Jr

Ahhh, those were the days!

It just crossed my mind, that you may know Chris Bowen formerly of McLaren, Arrows, TMG, and currently at Mercedes. He was just showing me the picture of him and the rest of composite gang with a bare McLaren F1 chassis.

I do like the premise of a class based on manufactuers' road cars. Imagine the Aston Martin Valkyrie racing around in anger!

[Adrian Thompson]

Originally Posted by nota

with the new 3 motors per year F-1 rules
one would think an f-1 based sports car class could work
with current f-1 motors

Except the lease cost of F1 engines is more than the proposed total budget for the 'new LMP1'. Also 200(ish)mile sprint races are nothing compared to 6-12-24 hour races where they cover 1-2-3,000km per event. No way would an F1 hybrid be cost effective or last long enough.

[wayner]

In 1972 the 917 was the prototype
( the 911RS the GT car)

In 1973 with rule changes, the 1973 911RSR was the prototype
( the 911RS the GT car)


Interesting how history repeats itself

Next thing you know, the RSR evolves into the 935 over the next few years
This should be exciting

[Won]

Originally Posted by Adrian Thompson

No way would an F1 hybrid be cost effective or last long enough.

Yes they will But cost is still a problem.