Socialized medicine point of reference

[andrew15]

Knowing that there are a distinct lack of actual socialized medicine examples that are not presented in a skewed manner (either right or left), I thought I'd post a current situation in my own family.

On Thurday evenign my father had some chest pain and shortness of breath - he thought it was nothing, but my mom packed him off to the hospital at 11pm. Within 15 minutes of arriving, he was being looked at by the on-call heart guy and was told he was getting a angiogram either Friday or Monday and would be staying in their care until then.

He had the angiogram late this afternoon and was hoping that a potential angioplast would be done at the same time (the doctor doing the angiogram is the same guy who would have performed the angioplast) - Unfortunately, the diagnosis was worse than anticipated and requires a quad bypass.

They live in Northern Ontario and on Monday he is being scheduled for OR time early this coming week week in Southern Ontario - patient transfer will be done by air ambulance (3 hr plane ride).

At this point the only expense to be paid is my moms hotel room in Ottawa for a couple of weeks.

So - from diagnosis to treatment in less than a week - no review, no panel, no 100k bill.

Could it be better? Sure, it would be great if the city he lived in had a huge cardiac ward, but he got to choose which specialist centre he is going to and I'm pretty happy that he's getting the care he needs in a competent manner by doctors that do this all day long.

Regards,
Andrew M

[dentist90]

Shhh... they'll be sneaking over for cheap medical treatment (and staying for the beer!)

PS: good luck to you all. Pretty common procedure these days, but still scary. My mom goes in for 1st of two hip prostheses Dec 1., about 5 months after asking her Dr. for a referral. All covered except the Tylenol afterwards.

[fintstone]

Don't you think it is unwise/unfair to invite critique of you father's care while he is still not well? Obviously, no one but an ass would try to make you worry more...even if they disagreed.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery.

[fintstone]

Originally Posted by dentist90

Shhh... they'll be sneaking over for cheap medical treatment (and staying for the beer!)

PS: good luck to you all. Pretty common procedure these days, but still scary. My mom goes in for 1st of two hip prostheses Dec 1., about 5 months after asking her Dr. for a referral. All covered except the Tylenol afterwards.

5 months seems like an incredibly long time to wait/be in pain or immobile.

[andrew15]

Originally Posted by fintstone

Don't you think it is unwise/unfair to invite critique of you father's care while he is still not well? Obviously, no one but an ass would try to make you worry more...even if they disagreed.

Best wishes for a speedy recovery.

Worried? Sure, but it's not like a comment here is going to make me worry more. I see people in off topic always posting their 'in treatment' stuff. I just assumed that because of it's socialized content that it would be moved to the politics area in about 20min, so I posted here to save the mods the trouble

AM

[Chuck Moreland]

I'm glad your dad got good care and prompt attention. We get the same in the US.

Now add up all the taxes you pay year after year, then tell me again how you had no expenses.

[andrew15]

Well, I was taxed as a single with no kids for quite a while, so my overall tax rate was about 24% with a 36% marginal rate.

That fits right around the Canadian average of 31.6% and the US average of 29.1% (based on 2005 data)

That argument would work for European countries though, with about 45-50% going to tax in a similar situation.

AM

[Chuck Moreland]

That's your federal income tax, right?

Don't you also have provincial tax? How about value added sales tax that goes as high 15.5% depending on province. What other taxes have you?

what does the total tax burden look like?

[andrew15]

No, that's the total combined.
Yes, we have a national goods and services tax (GST) which is 5% on almost all goods and services
Alberta's got lots of oil - no provincial sales tax here
I think PEI has the highest provincial sales tax rate at 10%, but only 27 people live there and they don't allow visitors

AM

[drew1]

Andrew,

Hope your dad comes out OK.

[red-beard]

Originally Posted by andrew15

No, that's the total combined.
Yes, we have a national goods and services tax (GST) which is 5% on almost all goods and services
Alberta's got lots of oil - no provincial sales tax here
I think PEI has the highest provincial sales tax rate at 10%, but only 27 people live there and they don't allow visitors

AM

What about sales tax? Last time I was in Quebec, I paid close to 25% sales tax. We were refunded 12% at the border, which I believe was the healthcareportion of the sales tax.

[imcarthur]

Andrew

I hope that all will be well. My brother just yesterday lost his 10 year battle with cancer. His only expenses over 10 years were for ambulances & some modest costs for experimental drugs. He was HIV + for 12 years too & those drugs were also covered except for a slight – and I mean very slight – overbill. And he received excellent care with virtually no income for that entire time period. He had surgery, numerous chemo & radiation treatments, MRIs, clinical studies & a 3 month stay in a superb palliative care facility. His total out-of-pocket expenses would be under $4K with the lion’s share of that being a $3500 bill for the experimental drugs that he self-sourced in California. And did I mention that he had excellent care?

So yes, the Canadian healthcare system works very well, thank you.

As for costs, you are talking to an audience that will never listen. The propaganda machine is on overdrive south of the border. And after all, Canadians are gullible socialist fools. Sure we pay for our healthcare & our small population means that the burden falls on a smaller pool of people that foot the bill. But when I or my family need care, I go to the hospital without the slightest hesitation. I don’t have to increase my VISA limit. I don’t have to worry about pre-existing conditions. I don’t have to cough up a deductible. I can get a second opinion if I like. And I know that I will receive the best medical care in the world.

Chuck: If you want to research our tax burden versus yours – good luck. There are so many variables in the mix that your head will hurt. Just don’t believe the bile that your hysterical media machine produces.

Redbeard: I think you are confusing currency differences. Quebec – and no other province – has ever had a retail tax rate of “close to 25%”. And the refund was never refunded as “the healthcareportion of the sales tax”. It doesn’t exist.

If you do want to research:

Taxation in Canada

Tax Rates Around the World

International Tax Burdens

Ian

[72doug2,2S]

Does anyone know of Americans coming to Canada for a quad bi-pass? How about the inverse of that?

[hardflex]

Chuck, to compare Canadian and US Taxes you really should count the cost of your Health Insurance Premiums, your portion AND the employer portion if applicable, as Taxes.

In my family situation Health Premiums are about 15% of income, with US Fed, State and Local taxes, then Sales Taxes, on top of that. That's probably on the high side of most on the board.


edit: tax freedom day is April 13 this year, which is close to the 29% rate quoted earlier. Forget

[jluetjen]

Originally Posted by hardflex

Chuck, to compare Canadian and US Taxes you really should count the cost of your Health Insurance Premiums, your portion AND the employer portion if applicable, as Taxes.

In my family situation Health Premiums are about 15% of income, with US Fed, State and Local taxes, then Sales Taxes, on top of that. That's probably on the high side of most on the board.

I have read somewhere our total tax burden Fed, State, and Local is in the mid 40 percent range WITHOUT HEALTHCARE !

Not really, because I can pick and chose different plans which have different premiums. I can't do that with taxes.

[hardflex]

But if you get a so called 'catostrophic plan' you're not getting the same health care either.

[Dottore]

Originally Posted by imcarthur

And did I mention that he had excellent care?

So yes, the Canadian healthcare system works very well, thank you.

As for costs, you are talking to an audience that will never listen. The propaganda machine is on overdrive south of the border.

I could sing a song about this as well, having just spent two and a half intensive months in the Canadian health care system with my father before he passed away.

The care he had was prompt, efficient, professional and compassionate. I have lived in eight different countries around the world, and I cannot imagine getting better care than my father did at the end of his life.

My mother suffers from serious osteoperosis. She has had both knees and both hips replaced, and just recently had one hip replaced for the second time. All of her experiences with the system here were positive, including the extensive therapy after each operation.

My father-in-law is currently on his last legs in Germany, and we have been able to compare how that health care system differs from the one in Canada at first hand. The single most depressing feature about the German system is the bureaucracy. Every procedure and every step requires endless paperwork, and countless approvals by an indifferent bureaucracy. Truly Kafkaesque. The Canadian system by contrast works incredibly efficiently IMO.

Driving through the US recently we heard a lot of the advertisements telling horror stories about the Canadian health care system. This was unbelievable rubbish. I couldn't believe the crap propaganda that was put out in these ads.

The whole health care debate in the US—from an outsiders perspective—is just one more example of how very deeply fecked up the US really is. You have this deeply dysfunctional country that desperately needs reform on so many levels (health care, tort law, judicial system, military, education, financial regulation, gun control, illegal immigration, poor general nutrition etc etc) and yet whenever there is any attempt to seriously change the status quo the tea-baggers get ugly.

I wish you well!

[jluetjen]

OK, here's a point of reference. My Dad during his last years received excellent health coverage through Medicare and his private health insurance. His final days were per his living will and not according to any government plan. It very much represented how I hope my final days to play out. Even well into his 80's his medical plan covered his treatments for minor skin cancer as well some expensive injections for a fairly obscure blood condition that he had. Without those treatments he most likely would never have made it to 85 as he did. He was active and independent well into his '80's.

With service like that I don't want our Government to toss out our existing system and make a wholesale replacement with some government managed system.

[fintstone]

Pretty amazing how Canadians think they don't pay for their healthcare. Doctors, drugs and equipment are not free. They are just like a lot of Americans...they prefer to buy things with someone else's money. Of course, when someone else pays the bills, you lose all choice (freedom). I spent zero for my health care this year. I rarely spend more than $100-$200 per year, usually nothing..but if I need healthcare...I can buy the best in the world. I am also amazed that they have convinced themselves (and some gullible Americans) of the quality of the care. Reminds me of when I went into the Soviet Union before the wall came down. The folks there were convinced that people in the west were actually worse of than they were...and were also rationing food and fuel...and driving cars with lawnmower engines. The same is true in North Korea...where thousands starve every year.
It is comforting to know that these countries with socialized medicine do such a good job letting their citizens die with dugnit and comforting families (probably the fact that there is no bill when Granny kicks the bucket helps).

[Chuck Moreland]

Clearly the healthcare is not free. You are paying for it in your taxes, or someone else who is being taxed more than you is paying for it.

I appreciate comparing tax structures is difficult, they are complex on both sides of the border. But I'm not getting my data from the media. I used to work for Northern Telecom, back when it was Northern Telecom. Plenty of visits to Canada, plenty of Canadian co-workers. Plenty of co-workers making the cross-border relocation. And the constant story line was oppressive taxes up north.