You Boyz Do Realize

[tabs]

If HC passes..the America you know is done and will be gone. It will be forever changed, gone will be the ability of the individual to achieve greatness on their ability. I t will absolutely kill the creative and entrepreneurial spirit as the malise of govt bureacucracy and back breaking taxes will make it almost impossible to achieve anything. The US will turn into a collective. Talent, capital will go to where opportunity will allow them to florish.

Fiscally it will be one big nail in the coffin that is to become of the USA. The inefficiency and debt will be so staggering that within a decade this nation will be BK.

[nostatic]

We're already bankrupt. Multiple decades of feeding the MIC and cheap crap from Walmart has done the deed. The HC will just be a swan song.

[red-beard]

Walmart is not the problem. Walmart sells what people want, just not you. The problem is too much government at all levels. With lower taxes, we can manufacture more things, cost effectively.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by nostatic

We're already bankrupt. Multiple decades of feeding the MIC and cheap crap from Walmart has done the deed. The HC will just be a swan song.

Also the great entitlment programs...the huge increase in state and Federal budgets have done us in...We can afford it, we are a rich nation..

American consumerism...a big screen for everyone.. you deserve it just put it on the card.

So it is not just as simple as U outlined...but you have the idea...

Until the passage of HC....the fat lady hasn't sung

But once she starts singing it ain't gona be "God Bless America" anymore....

[tabs]

Maybe I should have said it will be the FINAL nail in the coffin. It makes me want to cry.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by red-beard

Walmart is not the problem. Walmart sells what people want, just not you. The problem is too much government at all levels. With lower taxes, we can manufacture more things, cost effectively.

Red you are bickering over the details, Nostatus is on your side...he sees it to..

[McLovin]

It is very sad.

The beginning of the end was the beginning of the "entitlement society."

It's lead to the point (or we'll be there soon) where people who work and pay taxes are less than 50%. Where in big cities like LA, 20% are on the dole. A free society simply cannot function like that.

It's lead to a government that has no idea of what a printed dollar represents. They think a paper dollar printed by the government has intrinsic value, even without any labor or production backing it. This fundamental lack of knowledge leads to disasterous policies.

I do agree with you, tabs, this HC fiasco is it, the nail in the coffin. If it does not go through, we are still in a world of hurt, but maybe some real recovery would be possible.

[Aurel]

Don`t worry Tabby. When the federal reserve and the IRS are abolished, and the $100 bills are only good for heating in the fireplace, it won`t matter much they passed HC...

[McLovin]

Democrat Mary Landrieu from Louisiana, is one of the "swing votes," so what do they do? They put in ONE HUNDRED MILLION DOLLARS in subsidies for Louisiana in the Reid bill.

$100,000,000 of taxpayer money, to bribe one single vote.

That is what our government has come to.

Sad.

The $100 Million Health Care Vote? - The Note

[tabs]

Originally Posted by Aurel

Don`t worry Tabby. When the federal reserve and the IRS are abolished, and the $100 bills are only good for heating in the fireplace, it won`t matter much they passed HC...

This is the outcome that I cry about..

[tabs]

On the day HC passes...

1. The Chinese announce that they are no longer going to be buying US T Bills

2. The HC insurance companies announce that they are no longer going to be in the HC business on an effective date and are going to no longer be selling new policies.

That would be a revolt that BO and his minions couldn't ignore.

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by red-beard

Walmart is not the problem. Walmart sells what people want, just not you. The problem is too much government at all levels. With lower taxes, we can manufacture more things, cost effectively.

Walmart is a symptom, but it isn't just govt. The people want *stuff*. And more *stuff*.

There has to be a balance. I want manufacturing to return, but I also don't want all environmental laws repealed to compete on price. I've been to China and I've seen what uncontrolled manufacturing does. I don't want my son to have to live like that. Yes, cut govt and increase efficiency. But the population also has to realize that their cheap *stuff* that they're buying is a false economy.

[RKC]

Tabs - I don't disagree with your premise - that we owe a bit of dough, and that health care will cost us - but your conclusion: that America is finished if this happens, does not necessarily follow: after all, there are still fortunes being made in London, are there not?

Weren't they the world's richest country and sole superpower within living memory? Don't they have national health care? Seems to me, there are ways to make a fortune under just about any system, and the only people who will suffer are those who are unwilling to adapt to the new system.

Since we are still the most flexible capitalist system on the planet, I wouldn't worry about the changes so much as study them....

[red-beard]

As a parents, we're supposed to be smarter and an example for our children. Yes, the people of the USA want lots of things. But our governmental leaders KNOW that much is not constitutional and they do it anyway, because they want to be re-elected.

Like a child throwing a temper-tantrum over some thing they want, many times we need to be stern and say no. And you know that the kids may not really understand the financial situation, and they want the new toy. But you know you can't afford it, at least right now.

This reminds me of the parents that want to be friends with the kids, and not be a parent (this fits both of my sisters). And for some other reason I'm reminded of a nephew, who thought you just went to the ATM anytime you needed money. I remember one time he said to my sister-in-law: "Mom, can't we just get the money from the ATM?".

Too many of the people in the USA are like this. And the ATM leads to my wallet and yours.

We don't need to eliminate all or even most of the environmental laws. I think some do go to far, like the endangered species act that is killing part of Central California.

No, what we need is a sane taxation that doesn't penalize US companies and benefit foreign ones. Our income taxes, property taxes, payroll taxes, capital gains taxes, etc, all roll into the products we produce. Foreign goods get a tiny, if any, tariff.

A tax on consumption, with exemptions for the basics, would tax foreign good exactly the same as good produced in the USA. The price of US produced good will go down. The net price with taxes will be about the same. Foreign goods net price with taxes will increase.

Since the goods produced in the USA will not have taxes built into them, the price will be much lower when we export them. Will this move all manufacturing back to the US? No. Extremely labor intensive things, with low value add, will still not be competative. But low labor or highly automated items with high value add, will easily compete not just in the US, but worldwide.

I'm not just guessing here. And you don't need to look to Romania or Ireland for examples. The Wall Street Journal did a study of this comparing states taxation systems. The result was states that relied most heavily on Sales tax, while minimizing the state income tax, had more manufacturing, were growing and were the destination states for people leaving places like NY, California and Michigan.

[tabs]

Originally Posted by RKC

Tabs - I don't disagree with your premise - that we owe a bit of dough, and that health care will cost us - but your conclusion: that America is finished if this happens, does not necessarily follow: after all, there are still fortunes being made in London, are there not?

Weren't they the world's richest country and sole superpower within living memory? Don't they have national health care? Seems to me, there are ways to make a fortune under just about any system, and the only people who will suffer are those who are unwilling to adapt to the new system.

Since we are still the most flexible capitalist system on the planet, I wouldn't worry about the changes so much as study them....

Yeah the Beatles and the Stones left for shores that were tax havens ..In Britain back in the 1960's they called the flight of talent to the USA the BRAIN DRAIN (engineers etc) as all the talent was leaving the country because the oportunity was in America and not Britain .

Back in pre Thatcher Merry Olde England they even rationed Electricity and had black outs.

I love the "unwilling to adapt" part...it is going to be called the BLACK MARKET, Under ground economy....doing it under the table "adaptation."

If one increase the business costs by raising taxs (to pay for govt spending and debt service) and increase regulations that increase the cost of business...why would you open a new business if you could go to another country that has less of a from the get go overhead burden?

Also as a foreigner why would you want to invest money into a country where the overhead is greater than in a competitior nation?

Third as business revunues start to fall, infrastructure begins to decay (education) and talent will not come to the US but go to other nations where the money is flowing in. Talent tends to gravitate to where money can be made and that is where technology florishes.

Fourth the survival rate of startups business will be lessor as the regulatory and tax costs will bury them.

It is all a downward spiral....you have only to look at any Socialsit country or State in the USA to see how well it has worked out for the general population. NY (NY has lost 1.5M people), CA (CA only increases because of illegal immigration), MI and NJ are all big losers of people of means, talent and business. Detroit back in the day used to be one of the wealthiest cities in America..full of vibrancy...now they call it the URBAN PRARIE..

At todays debt level we are at 80% of GDP...THe USA is headed for a 20T USD Debt without HC...which is estimated to cost by US Senator Judd Greg to be 3,000,000,000,000 USD. The Congress is using accounting gimicks to HIDE the true cost...they have cut the 200B to repay MD's out of the HC bill and made it a seperate bill. They are collecting 10 years of revnues to pay for 6 years of HC...and the Congress and admin is using BEST SCENARIO numbers...

THEN there is that $52,000,000,000,000 in UNFUNDED liabilities the US govt owes on Social Security and Medicare..

So it is far more than just "A BIT OF DOUGH" that we owe...Who is going to pay it off...and at what point is the number so great that the USA CAN"T PAY IT OFF..and has to DEFALULT on the debt. The first place they will default is on you guessed it Social Security and Health Care, so it is going to fall on the older folks families to support them AS Buffet, Peterson and Greg have said "BANANA REPUBLIC" time for the USA. Just how do those peons in those nations live exactly and what kind of business opportunities do they have, especially without the opportunity for an education? I can envision a nation of Trailers...thank you...

[Chuck Moreland]

Originally Posted by RKC

Tabs - I don't disagree with your premise - that we owe a bit of dough, and that health care will cost us - but your conclusion: that America is finished if this happens, does not necessarily follow: after all, there are still fortunes being made in London, are there not?

Weren't they the world's richest country and sole superpower within living memory? Don't they have national health care? ....

Yes they were, past tense - before they passed National Health Care in 1948. Not since. Correlation or causation?

You are making a strong case against nationalized health care.

[tabs]

GB broke themselves on 2 World Wars...the USA picked up the chips so to speak...and now we are handing them off to China...and India and Brazil and Korea and SE Asia and.....

[berettafan]

Originally Posted by nostatic

There has to be a balance. I want manufacturing to return, but I also don't want all environmental laws repealed to compete on price. I've been to China and I've seen what uncontrolled manufacturing does. I don't want my son to have to live like that. Yes, cut govt and increase efficiency. But the population also has to realize that their cheap *stuff* that they're buying is a false economy.

THANK YOU!

The more people face up to this the better.

To reference my miserably failed 'natural state of the global economy' thread this is a major part of why the US can NOT compete on level ground with the ROW. And SHOUDLN'T! We need to understand that our way of life, the quality of it, isn't the natural state of human nature (as is evidenced by how the ROW lives) and requires great people to lead us, even push us, in the right direction. We need help keeping our eye on the ball of quality. Quality air, quality medicine, quality consumer junk, quality work conditions, quality food and drink, everything!

The tighter we pack our country with people (illegals are NOT helping!) the more we will begin to hear things like 'we have no choice....it's too late' when it comes to everything from healthcare to FDA regulations to medicine to every part of our lives.

SOMEBODY needs to step up and ***** slap Congress and ask them who exactly is running the country. It is a time for a great speach backed by serious action. It is, i believe, our last chance for reasonable (non violent) action as opposed to violent revolution which could very well be the thing that ends our way of life permanently.

[H.G.P.]

The "Manhattan Declaration" may just be the beginning, perhaps not enough, but at least a line in the sand has been drawn somewhere by someone. The power of two.

[Racerbvd]

Those commie bastards got it past in the Senate, better start stocking on guns & ammo.. Go see you senator and give them a swift kick where their nuts should be and those of you here blindly follow the Traitor obama, thanks for your part in destroying this country...