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News Flash: Harry Reid thinks we have a voluntary tax system?

Harry Reid is the US Senate Majority Leader.

Jan Helfeld: …if the government is in the business of forcefully taking money from some people in order to provide welfare benefits to others, how will the people whose money is being taken feel about the government?
Harry Reid: Well, I don’t accept your phraseology. I don’t think we “force” people…

Helfeld: Taxation is not forceful?
Reid: Well, no.

Helfeld: It’s voluntary?
Reid: In fact, quite to the contrary. Our system of government is a voluntary tax system.

Helfeld: Oh… if you don’t want to pay your taxes, you don’t have to?
Reid: Of course you have to pay your taxes, but…

Helfeld: The government will force you to pay, or they’ll fine you or imprison you. Won’t they?
Reid: We have a voluntary system. The fact of the matter is that if when you pay your taxes — you see, in many other countries, it’s not voluntary. For example, in many countries, the government makes sure that your employer takes out every penny. Many countries don’t file income tax returns. Why?

Helfeld: We have withholding here too, don’t we?
Reid: Pardon me?

Helfeld: Withholding.
Reid: With some program, yes. But I’m talking about in some countries, European countries as an example; there… you don’t file an income tax return. There is no need to, because your employer takes all the money out. That’s the difference between a voluntary and an involuntary system.

Helfeld: But can…? Can…?
Reid: You can choose to not pay your taxes, but I don’t accept your phraseology, that you forcibly take money from somebody else and give it to others. You know, that’s the way it is on any program. I mean…

Helfeld: Can the taxpayer…?
Reid: …highway program is the same. We…

Helfeld: Excuse me.
Reid: We take money; we “forcibly” take money in your phraseology, but…

Helfeld: But can…? Let me ask you something.
Reid: …build highways with it, put people in the Army.

Helfeld: Can the taxpayer decide not to pay his taxes if he wants?
Reid: He can… He cannot pay his taxes if he wants.

Helfeld: What will be the…? What will happen?
Reid: He’ll be subject to civil and criminal penalties.

Helfeld: They’ll put him in jail — they’ll use force against him. He pays… everybody pays taxes under threat of jail or fines: on the threat of force. In other words, you are forced to pay your taxes. Whether you fill out your form voluntarily or whether its withheld by your employer, you don’t have a choice on whether you can pay taxes that are going to be used for welfare programs — you can’t make that choice.
Reid: Well, but the reason our system is called a voluntary tax system — and I recognize, you know, that ultimately you can’t cheat your taxes, but our… We have many provisions in the law they don’t have in most countries: we have deductibility for home interest on mortgage payment, they don’t have that in most countries, we have deductibility for certain excessive expenses as relates to health — doctors, hospitals — we have all kinds of tax — some people call them “loopholes” but others would call them “incentives for people to do business” — and that’s why… You know, you’re not “forced” to pay certain taxes. There are ways… if you decide to buy a home and…

Helfeld: You can decide not to pay taxes? In the United States?
Reid: I mean, I really don’t understand what you’re trying to get at. If you’re… What… the point of the matter is…

Helfeld: Because you objected to my phraseology. You said that… you say that the government isn’t forcefully taking money from some people to provide welfare benefits to others, and, in fact, that’s what it’s doing, because all taxation is forceful. It’s backed up by physical force. If you don’t pay your taxes, the government will intervene with you forcefully. So you don’t have a choice. It’s not voluntary. You can’t decide not to pay and not suffer consequences. If you don’t pay, you’ll go to jail. So: you’re forced to pay

Harry Reid, this is liberal intellect on display.
Old 01-29-2011, 10:09 AM
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this is OLD news.
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Old 01-29-2011, 10:13 AM
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Old 01-29-2011, 07:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legion View Post
War is peace.
Freedom is slavery.
Ignorance is strength.
And Socialism sucks. Liberals have no problem spending the taxes you "voluntarily" give them.
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Old 01-29-2011, 07:32 PM
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I knew Reid was misguided. I didn't realize that he's so illusory and/or dense. With "leaders" like that, no wonder our country is headed to ruin.
Old 01-29-2011, 09:15 PM
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oh, this is par for the course, for sure. harry=twat.
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Old 01-29-2011, 09:20 PM
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I doubt there is a denser collection of gibbering cretins in one place than hon PARF

The word “voluntary,” as used in Flora and in IRS publications, refers to our system of allowing taxpayers initially to determine the correct amount of tax and complete the appropriate returns, rather than have the government determine tax for them from the outset. The requirement to file an income tax return is not voluntary and is clearly set forth in sections 6011(a), 6012(a), et seq., and 6072(a). See also Treas. Reg. § 1.6011-1(a).
Old 01-29-2011, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWebb View Post
I doubt there is a denser collection of gibbering cretins in one place than hon PARF

The word “voluntary,” as used in Flora and in IRS publications, refers to our system of allowing taxpayers initially to determine the correct amount of tax and complete the appropriate returns, rather than have the government determine tax for them from the outset. The requirement to file an income tax return is not voluntary and is clearly set forth in sections 6011(a), 6012(a), et seq., and 6072(a). See also Treas. Reg. § 1.6011-1(a).
Very erudite copy and paste job, parfessor. But you fail in defending Reid's idiocy. He's a bumbling moron. That's a fact.
Old 01-29-2011, 09:47 PM
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There is nothing voluntary about our tax system. It's complete misuse of the term.

If his point is that one's withholding is voluntary, this is not entirely true either. You are only allowed so many deductions and consequently to minimize the amount forcibly seized from your paycheck (zero percent interest loan to the government even in the best of cases) by so much. If you get caught trying to under-withhold, you can be subjected to penalties.

Reference IRS Form W4. Similarly if you don't pay what THEY tell you quarterly as a business - based on THEIR estate of what THEY think you'll make, you (again) get slapped with fines and the possibility of arrest.

Where's the "voluntary" aspect of this again?

This isn't semantics, it's flat-out false statements or possibly delusional ramblings of an idiot career politician who's clearly lost touch with reality.

Last edited by Porsche-O-Phile; 01-30-2011 at 03:17 AM..
Old 01-30-2011, 03:09 AM
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To the people in Arizona, why do you keep sending him back to do your work?
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Old 01-30-2011, 06:14 AM
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Reid is an idjit. The only thing "voluntary" about income tax is the ability to turn the paperwork in on your own. don't "voluntarily" turn in the paperwork and watch what happens.
Old 01-30-2011, 06:26 AM
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similarly, in the US you are free to walk into a bank with a handgun and demand $10K in cash.

many people have tested how "voluntary" the US tax system is. Recently, Wesley Snipes took Harry Reid's advice.

Old 01-30-2011, 07:52 AM
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To the people in Arizona, why do you keep sending him back to do your work?
He is in NEVADA
Old 01-30-2011, 08:07 AM
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I'm going to side with Reid and Webb . . .

right here
Quote:
Harry Reid-
...we have deductibility for certain excessive expenses as relates to health — doctors, hospitals — we have all kinds of tax — some people call them “loopholes” but others would call them “incentives for people to do business” — and that’s why… You know, you’re not “forced” to pay certain taxes. There are ways… if you decide to buy a home and…
So what Reid is FINALLY getting at is that one can choose; either work, OR be a dumpster-diving bum (or politician) and then pay no taxes.

He is saying that our govt, more and more, makes incentives for people to NOT do business.
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Old 01-30-2011, 08:30 AM
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the "voluntary" aspect is that you figure it all out & report - this opens the door to refusniks & cheating; other tax systems have the taxes built in

that is why it is commonly called voluntary - I agree we need another word, but this attack on Biden is (yet another) silly canard
Old 01-30-2011, 10:51 AM
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its not an attack on biden. it is a well earned attack on harry reid. you should watch the video. it is a classic.
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Old 01-30-2011, 01:06 PM
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So by "voluntary" they mean "we're VOLUNTEERING you to fill out all the forms and do all the math and all the work figuring out how much you're going to pay us - for free" What a deal. In addition to getting screwed in taxes, you get to be "volun-told" to do all the work free of charge.

Admittedly they could (like other countries do) just tell you "you owe X" and have a bunch of people on the government payroll figuring out what X is for everyone, but at the end of the day the average Joe gets screwed either way - either by doing the government's work of figuring out X for free (under penalty of audit, fines and jail time) or by having the government tell you what X is, and then paying extra taxes to pay for all the people working for the government to calculate it.

Lose-lose if you ask me. Neither one is really "voluntary" at all.
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Old 01-30-2011, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RWebb View Post

that is why it is commonly called voluntary - I agree we need another word,
"Mandatory"? (mandated by law)

"Required"? (required by law)

"Involuntary"? (it's "voluntary" only if you don't want to go to jail, ask Wes Snipes and the many other "taxes are voluntary" whackos who've gone to jail)

take your pick.
Old 01-30-2011, 01:32 PM
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I liked Costa Rica for the way they taxed, minimal income tax, some property tax, and high sales tax, restaurants and bars even but I don't remember it on store bought food. If you are spending you are being taxed. I thought it worked out ok.
Old 01-30-2011, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
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but this attack on Biden is (yet another) silly canard
As you so often denigrate others for their lack of attention to detail, spelling, or punctuation, I would ask you to pay attention.

I guess you are the canard this time.

It;s Harry not Joe. Try to keep up.
Old 01-30-2011, 01:46 PM
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