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Who knew that Hope & Change would bring ....

the threat of down-graded status from Moody's ?

Moody's Weighs Downgrading U.S. Credit Rating as Obama Says He 'Won't Yield' in Debt Talks - FoxNews.com

The United States of America . .. and Obama insists that he should be given more cheese to dole. ...enough to last until 2012 (no short term compromise soln')

This guy, obama, is ruinous.
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Old 07-15-2011, 02:50 PM
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Old 07-15-2011, 03:01 PM
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What your graph shows is that the US debt has been escalulating since 1980 as the US has had to use debt instruments to maintain the illusion that the US was a rich nation that could afford it all without consequence. The US wanted the services but was unwilling to pay for them with higher tqaxes in order to keep the economy rolling along vibrantly. However the US was losing steam on the competive front and the US had to resort to ever bigger bubbles to maintain the illusion of prosperity that is until 2008. Now everyone except the Dems recognize the game is over and the deficit and debt shell game is going to break the bank.
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Old 07-15-2011, 03:19 PM
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That graph can't be right. It says that Clinton and Obama combined, added a few trillion to the Republican 14 trillion dollars of debt.
The confused right think that Reagan decreased the debt, both Bush's decreased the debt and Obama has created 14 trillion all by himself in 2 years.

How the hell did Reagan raise taxes 11 times, have no wars to start or wind down and still triple the debt?
Amazing.
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Old 07-15-2011, 04:02 PM
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We told you. You should of never elected all those Republicans to the House.
You can't complain now, this is all your fault.
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Old 07-15-2011, 04:05 PM
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That graph can't be right. It says that Clinton and Obama combined, added a few trillion to the Republican 14 trillion dollars of debt.
The confused right think that Reagan decreased the debt, both Bush's decreased the debt and Obama has created 14 trillion all by himself in 2 years.

How the hell did Reagan raise taxes 11 times, have no wars to start or wind down and still triple the debt?
Amazing.
A Democrat controlled Congress. RR was all about a new morning in America, or only looking at the sunny side of life. As such he allowed unrestricted use of the CC by the children to maintain the illusion that America was still the supreme nation in the world that had unlimited resources. Jimmy Carter to his credit told the American people the truth when he told us to put on a sweater.

For that debt chart to make sense one has to look closely at the events leading up to that upward spiral starting in 1980. The first thing to look at was the cost of the 7 year Vietnam war. That was where one heard a great sucking sound of the national treasury being drained combine that with the continuing expense of LBJ's Great Society..(Medicare & Medicaid,) Then the decoupling of the USD from Gold and the USD being the currency of choice for the purchase of oil (part of the deal was no drilling in the US). The Arabs bumped the price of oil because they got tired of getting shafted by the US continuing to devalue the USD with its extravagant ways. That all led to the stagflation of the late 70's. To combat that interest rates went to 16% on the 30 year Treasury, which brought the US economy into a deep recession. The way out was the Keynesian axiom of spend, spend , spend and that is what the US has done since 1980 to keep the ship afloat. Nothing has been fixed since 1980. That was th epoint where I said they are going to continue to do business as usual until they can't beg, borrow nor print another dime.


If one wants to know the real reason for the war in Iraq, it was Sadam wanting to decouple the purchase of oil from the USD by substitiuting the Euro. That was a threat to the deal the US struck with the Saudi's in the early 70's by Nixon. If the USD is replaced as the Reserve Currenty the US crashes and burns economically

RR was a great President on the Foreign Affairs front but a miserable failure on the domestic front. His main failing was never looking at the structural malaise of the US economy. By the 1980's the Japaneses in paticular were eating our lunch and it seemed that they would take over the world. That was the point where so many American jobs left these shores because the competition beat us at our own game. By the mid to late 80's US corporations started to get lean and mean by cleaning out middle managment and started to concern themselves with productivity. The world of corporations started to shine while the Ameican peoples star started to fade. But the illusion was maintained by RE and later by the use of debt instruments. That string all ran out in 2008.

So today the A,eriocan people are faced with the fact that they are broke, and the US government is broke. If the Sovereign Debt Bubble deflates the world economy crashes and burns right along with America becaue of th eintertwined nature of the worlds finances and the USD being the reserve currency. What the American people are faced with is the truth of 1980, that we are not the rich can afford it all nation that we were back in the 1960's. Tommorow isn't going to be brighter than today, as a matter of afact it is going to be worse. So put your sweater on.
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Old 07-16-2011, 12:58 AM
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The US has spent all of the money it was going to have to use to support the social compact of the New Deal. Combine that with the social spending of the Great Society and the US is broke. All of that is now UNAFORDABLE and is going to be defaulted upon sooner or later. Thus the Great Progressive Era of Americn History is DEAD, DEAD, DEAD. Granny ain't gona be collecting her SS check for much longer (this also means all those govt pensions etc). One might say that the US over the past 40 years has lived and spent for today without concern for tommorow. The US has been the Grasshopper and not the Ant. So Hugh to truly to have been conservative you shoulda bin living in Pacoima.

The problem with BO and friends is that they are still of the mind set of the US being the rich nation of the 1960's. They don't realize the game is over except for the shouting and the pointing of fingers. They along with a number of Republicans think the game of musical chairs can continue and is the solution.(keep spending) That is why the voice of the Tea Party is on the money. The Tea Party is at least calling it for what it is, and they don't like it. Liberals would do well to reconsider their position with regards to the Tea Party.
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Old 07-16-2011, 01:09 AM
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The US has spent all of the money it was going to have to use to support the social compact of the New Deal. Combine that with the social spending of the Great Society and the US is broke. All of that is now UNAFORDABLE and is going to be defaulted upon sooner or later. Thus the Great Progressive Era of Americn History is DEAD, DEAD, DEAD. Granny ain't gona be collecting her SS check for much longer (this also means all those govt pensions etc). One might say that the US over the past 40 years has lived and spent for today without concern for tommorow. The US has been the Grasshopper and not the Ant. So Hugh to truly to have been conservative you shoulda bin living in Pacoima.
You're right. The problem now is the direction we go from here. We either act like adults, stop overspending, start the process of paying down the debt. Or do we complete the process and go to an authoritarian regime which tells us what we get. I know which way President Obama and his crew want to go.

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The problem with BO and friends is that they are still of the mind set of the US being the rich nation of the 1960's. They don't realize the game is over except for the shouting and the pointing of fingers. They along with a number of Republicans think the game of musical chairs can continue and is the solution.(keep spending) That is why the voice of the Tea Party is on the money. The Tea Party is at least calling it for what it is, and they don't like it. Liberals would do well to reconsider their position with regards to the Tea Party.
I think that is the problem with some of his friends. But other friends, people like Van Jones, William Ayers, Dornin, etc, want the system to completely fail, so that they can build a new society.

What these people can do is wreck destruction. The 20th century showed that communism can't work. The 21st century will show that even "light communism", socialism, progressivism, etc, cannot work. Only freedom with limited government, is what works.
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Old 07-16-2011, 02:43 AM
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If one also takes a look at that Graph one notices that the upward curve starts to flatten under Clinton. This was largely due to the Republicans holding the Congress and forcing balanced budgets. Then in 2001 the Graph starts to show an almost vertical climb in deficit and debt. What happened in 2001 to cause this trend to start?

If one recalls the DOT COM bubble burst in March of 2000 and the country went into Recession, which was followed by the election debacle and then 911. After 911 the US embarked upon the Afghan and Iraq wars. The reason why the Dems were so opposed to the wars is that it competed for funds that went into Social Programs. The reason why the Debt Curve started to flatten was the end of the Cold War and thus the need for defense spending. So in 2002 we were back to Guns & Butter, one can not have both and not pay for them. If one considers the the rational for the Iraq war as being the loss of Reserve Currency Status and the affect it would have on the USD and the economy of the USA then it makes sense. The Bush Tax cuts were the rational of bringing the US economy out of the 2000 Recession which was coupled with the tremendous shock of 911 (loss of confidence). Now add in the the cost of conducting 2 wars whose rational was the preservation of American economic hegemony in the world via the Reserve currency status. Throw in the fact that America due to the gutting of its industrial might over the previous decades due to off shoring of jobs and you have a nation that does not have the same resiliency that it had in the 1960's. This was a miscalculation by the political leadership of the US.

BO was faced with a collapse of the US economy due to the use of private debt instruments which was used to maintain the fiction of a wealthy America (RE prices) and fighting two wars. His solution was to Stimulate the economy with more govt spending on the domestic side. Which has not worked and will not work as the debt levels now create a drag on the economy. Again Guns & Butter.

The Treasury and the Fed have thrown in everything but the kitchen sink to restart the economy. It has not worked, one can consider the US economy as a low torque behemoth that is going to rumble and stumble on no matter what so it is natural that it would recover from the shocks of 2008 to some extent on just the exigencies of day to day living. Thus the re upping of the Bush Tax Cuts to alleviate the Depression. The Republicans seeing that raising taxes is counter productive to economic growth because they take capital out of the economy are opposed to raising them. The Dems think that by rising taxes they can pay for the Guns & Butter programs they think are not only the solution to the economic problems but are necessary to maintain the social compact of the New Deal and Great Society. In other words to avoid a collapse of the Sovereign Debt Bubble the Dems want to raise taxes to support the Guns and Butter strategy of spending. However we are now at a point where neither Guns nor Butter can be afforded anymore. The US is Broke. The only thing going for the US are the corporations who are doing well because of their international integration. However corporations owe allegiance only to the shareholders and will leave the US if it gets too hot for them to operate at a profit. To make a profit is their rational for existence, and without it they cease to exist.

In the end the danger is grave and mounting daily with the debt clock ticking away. The whole world economy will collapse like a house of cards if the US or European Sovereign Debt Bubbles deflates. If the Euro collapses the contagion will drag the US down with it. The US can destroy the world economy because the foundation of the world economy is based upon the USD being the reserve currency, the US debt is held world wide, and the US is the biggest player in not only Global finance but the economy of the world as well. So have sweet dreams everyone...
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Old 07-16-2011, 02:47 AM
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I think that is the problem with some of his friends. But other friends, people like Van Jones, William Ayers, Dornin, etc, want the system to completely fail, so that they can build a new society.

.
These people should be carefull of what they wish for. If they bring the system down al they will have is being king of the shyte pile. Further when one brings the system down one is throwing the dice and there is no telling what number will come up. So the better plans of mice and men who have great expectations might not get what they bargained for.

Better to be a servant in heaven than being the ruler of the misery in he11.
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Old 07-16-2011, 02:55 AM
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The reality of the possibility of global economic collapse is finally beginning to be recognized. This is going to be a painful and prolonged 21st Century for human history. For Americans, the thin veil of naivete is being lifted. We (and thus the world) are in serious trouble. Most Americans have no idea of the human capacity for cruelty toward other humans in times of upheaval. And a time of upheaval we are in. Blaming this horror on "Hope and Change" is as ridiculous as blaming it on George Bush's 'illegal wars'. In actual fact, the genesis of the notions of a 'Great Society' and of victory in the 'War on Poverty' could only have formed within a hallucinogenic cloud of false beleif in perpetual prosperity. We continue to borrow against the future refusing to acknowledge the future is now.
Old 07-16-2011, 03:45 AM
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These people should be carefull of what they wish for. If they bring the system down al they will have is being king of the shyte pile. Further when one brings the system down one is throwing the dice and there is no telling what number will come up. So the better plans of mice and men who have great expectations might not get what they bargained for.

Better to be a servant in heaven than being the ruler of the misery in he11.
Most of these people "think" they will be top of the heap, when the system re-orders. They actually are useful idiots.
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Old 07-16-2011, 04:22 AM
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The reality of the possibility of global economic collapse is finally beginning to be recognized. This is going to be a painful and prolonged 21st Century for human history. For Americans, the thin veil of naivete is being lifted. We (and thus the world) are in serious trouble. Most Americans have no idea of the human capacity for cruelty toward other humans in times of upheaval. And a time of upheaval we are in. Blaming this horror on "Hope and Change" is as ridiculous as blaming it on George Bush's 'illegal wars'. In actual fact, the genesis of the notions of a 'Great Society' and of victory in the 'War on Poverty' could only have formed within a hallucinogenic cloud of false beleif in perpetual prosperity. We continue to borrow against the future refusing to acknowledge the future has become now.
Ditto and fixed it for ya..
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Old 07-16-2011, 04:41 AM
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Anyone remember when Clinton took credit for Newt & Co.'s push toward fiscal responsibility? The ROW responded favorably toward US investment.

Why Barry the Oblique pushes so hard for irresponsible actions is puzzling.
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Old 07-16-2011, 08:09 AM
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Anyone remember when Clinton took credit for Newt & Co.'s push toward fiscal responsibility? The ROW responded favorably toward US investment.

Why Barry the Oblique pushes so hard for irresponsible actions is puzzling.
I have a big thread in mind on this topic, but I'll summarize to relevant thoughts.

Progressives view the economy as a static pot and any movement of funds as a zero-sum game. This simplistic understanding of economics manifests itself in a variety of ways. First, progressives think that if they double the tax rate, they will double tax receipts, and if they half the tax rate, they will half tax receipts. Second, they see any corporation who provides services to the poor as "stealing from the poor". A common example is McDonald's. They don't see McDonald's as providing a desirable product for a low price, they see the money they take in exchange for food as stealing, leaving the poor that much poorer. This is why they favor a redistributive tax policy, because they see it as restoring some of the money that is "stolen" from the poor. (They have no concept of earning anything.)

Progressives see the government as the ultimate benevolent institution. They view any spending the government does as "good". If a government spends more than it takes in, it is just doing that much more "good". They see deficits as only being bad because ignorant people (conservatives) have convinced people that they are bad. Because government can make the rules for the games it plays, and choose winners and losers, it should be able to make itself a winner while incurring massive spending deficits.

To summarize, they see "responsible" action as wholly unnecessary, and are only entertaining ideas about doing anything about the deficit because some of their supporters (Wall Street) are pushing them to do so. This is all just window-dressing to them, their real goal is to put the issue to bed WHILE at the same time laying the groundwork for more "good" government spending.
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Old 07-16-2011, 10:06 AM
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Liberals don't like deficits either,,,they just blame the Republicans for not being able to rise taxes high enough to cover expenses. If a shortfall does occur Gawd forbid that they should cut spending on their beloved social issues. They think we will just make it up later.
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Old 07-16-2011, 01:19 PM
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From bondage to spiritual faith;
From spiritual faith to great courage;
From courage to liberty;
From liberty to abundance;
From abundance to complacency;
From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependence;
From dependence back into bondage."
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Old 07-16-2011, 01:22 PM
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From bondage to spiritual faith;
From spiritual faith to great courage;
From courage to liberty;
From liberty to abundance;
From abundance to complacency;
From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependence;
From dependence back into bondage."
I think were just about here....
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Old 07-16-2011, 03:04 PM
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From bondage to spiritual faith;
From spiritual faith to great courage;
From courage to liberty;
From liberty to abundance;
From abundance to complacency;
From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependence;
From dependence back into bondage."
Agreed. Disproportionate "abundance" for "very" few...
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Old 07-16-2011, 04:01 PM
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I'm planning my future to be one of them ( notice i didnt say "Hope". That way If SSI isn't there I won't be eating dry dog food, canned maybe.
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