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Munky King's Avatar
 
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Hood chassis rail modification

Help!
Iíve recently purchased a Ď75 incomplete project.
It came with some rust repair to the front.

Iíve just come to put a Getty hood on, and even with a 4mm scuttle to hood gap, the hood doesnít seem wide enough.

Looks like Iím going to have to tap both rails in... seems pretty desperate to me!

Anyone else had this issue? Any suggestions as to how best persuade them inwards?

Should I clamp / bolt a straight bar to it and then tap them inwards?

The other side is slightly more than this.

I canít bring the hood any further down to fix the gap as the gap at the top would be too great. The fenders are about as far in as they will go (and still need to be set once I get the hood just right). They also need the adhesive strip putting in there, so will only get worse.

In the picture, the hood seal is in place.

Thanks for any advice and experience.
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Old 07-23-2018, 09:58 AM
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Some more pictures of the current state.
What is a good width for the hood to fender gap?
I pushed the hood as far over to one side as I could and this is what it looks like.




Should I centralize and tap over both frame rails? Or just centralize and leave as is? Or other?

Is there another way to drift the rails over short of a big hammer?
Thanks
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Old 07-23-2018, 03:03 PM
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you move the upper aprons in using a B.F.H. and a block of wood.
most of the time i will just move both sides of the aprons in then hang the fenders and using a piece of 2 x 4 oak wood and a big hammer i will move the fenders back out to get the gaps i'm looking for.

you will find it's easier to move the fenders out then taking the fenders on and off trying to move them in to fit them.
a piece of pine 2x4 will not work you will find the wood is to soft and will split chip and crack.
and being soft it will not move the fenders out to well.

lay the wood across two to 3 of the fender bolts so when your hitting the wood box it's moving the bolts not the metal of the fender. if the wood is only on the fenders it will leave dents in them.
Old 07-24-2018, 12:52 AM
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Thanks so much for taking the time to post and explain - that makes great sense.

I’ve been a little reluctant to use a BFH but after the struggle I’ve had, I was coming to the conclusion that it’s what is needed.

So I guess I need to:

Centralize the hood on the scuttle.

Take the fenders off and bang the hood aprons (frame rails) in a little more than needed - wood block and BFH in hand)

Hang the fenders and carefully tap the hood aprons back out - across the bolts with wood block as you say, to get a good gap.

Go back to the fender door gaps and clean them up.

Dang - that could have saved me 8hrs or more!

Thanks for the great advice!
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Last edited by Munky King; 07-24-2018 at 02:49 AM..
Old 07-24-2018, 02:39 AM
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Well that was a damn site harder than I ever imagined.
That upper frame is unbelievably strong.

One of the problems I had was no hard wood to mask the hits with the lump hammer. As you said 962, soft wood really doesnít do it. I think part of the problem was the softwood was absorbing some of the impact.

It was also splintering and disintegrating pretty quickly.

I went from gentle taps to all out swings. I think I need to go again with a bigger hammer and hardwood.

Just out of interest, what length do you usually use? Where on the side of the car are you applying the impacts? Again, I just canít belive how strong that front is!

I ended up getting a huge blister on my hand from all of the hammer work, but it still only yielded marginally.



I also then had the fenders on and off, more often than the refrigerator light in a frat house.
This is where I ended up (well I did one more on and off after this and managed another minor improvement).



This is before I grind anything off the fender.



The very bottom of the fender seems to have a slight twist in it. I think itís going to be heating and then man handing it into shape. Something that would have been easier on a metal panel.

Iím going to buy myself a stout piece of wood this week, and get back at it on the weekend.

A friend with a Targa will be back in a couple of weeks, and I think his car will be invaluable for checking out the factory heights and gaps. For instance, Iím not sure if the fenders edge height at the hood should be the same height or lower than the hood...

All these little details you take for granted!
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Old 07-29-2018, 05:22 PM
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this is the BFH i use. it's a 4 LBer !
i only use a piece of oak ruff cut 2x4 about 12" long or so. should only take a good hard hit or two to move the apron. you leave all the bolts out except the ones on the upper fender to the apron. if you bolt up the other ones your also trying to move all of them this is not what you want to do as the fender is to ridged to move then.

time for a pair of work gloves i'm guessing?
buy a pair of fabrication gloves when your working with metals a mechanics gloves are no good as metals will slice thru them.
Old 07-30-2018, 04:42 AM
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Ah, so not only was I going wrong with a 2’ 6” piece of softwood, I was doing it with hands as soft as hand model who sells hand moisturizer!

When you say leave the top bolts in, that must be with the fenders off? Do you hit the rail at the point where the bolts go through? That’s where I’ve been having a go at, but I’m amazed at how much punishment it can take! I think hitting it in 12” sections might make it yield a little better...

If you can do it with a couple of hits, remind me not to argue with you!

Also, it sounds like I need a bigger hammer - thought as much Not sure my neighbor will agree!

Thanks for the advice again. You have given me renewed vigor to get out there and give it another go this weekend.

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Old 07-30-2018, 04:01 PM
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ok lets recap
say you have to move the fender in 6 mm to get the gap your looking for.
remove the fender and hit the apron in about 8 to 10 mm . this way you know its in at least as far as you need to go.
place the block of oak as it is in the pic. and hit it with a bfh.

now you have moved the apron in just a little more then you needed it install the femder and screw in the upper fender bolts only.
lay the block of wood across at least over two of the bolts making sure the force load when you hit the apron back out your hitting where the bolts are to move the apron and fender all at the same time.
with a BFH it should only take a good hit or two to move them both out.
don't force it use a bigger hammer
Old 07-30-2018, 06:03 PM
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figures the pic was up side down
Old 07-30-2018, 06:04 PM
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962: great illustration....looks like my Dad's work....and he's an engineer. John/CT
Old 07-31-2018, 06:14 AM
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Thanks 962.
Crystal clear! Thanks again (and again) for taking the trouble to help this fool out!
Do you have a sideline in illustration?

Time for that bigger hammer
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Last edited by Munky King; 07-31-2018 at 02:23 PM..
Old 07-31-2018, 09:22 AM
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from the time is was very young i always loved drawing ( still do).
when i 1st went to school i went for art quickly changed when i found out how much money they made or i should say didn't make.
then went into technical drawing/engineering. back then they didn't have computers to aid you in your design work. i have a number of programs for designing things now but i still like doing things the old way by hand with pencil and paper.
Old 08-01-2018, 02:53 AM
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Well you are a great teacher too!
I only had an hour on the car this weekend, so still some way to go.


Itís about 5.5mm at the top and down to about 3 at the bottom now on the drivers side
Looks like I need to move the hood across slightly on the skuttle and I think the drivers side will be very close.
It looks like it might need to move up a little. The fender is lower than the hood. So quite some work still needed (including big hammer on the passenger side, but itís slowly getting there!
Thank you!
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Old 08-07-2018, 03:38 PM
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Started fighting the second fender.

Man, fitting GRP panels is hard work. They are easy to sand down etc, but unlike metal, that you can comparatively easily change the profile / form of by bending force, GRP has essentially to be worked with as is.

The door interface side of my fender is touching off somewhere I can’t see, making it difficult to raise to the height of the windshield scuttle. It also needs to go further back to meet the line of the door. The flanges are so thick, it makes it difficult to push back and meet the scuttle / door section.

Once I get that sorted, it looks like the height of the panel is going to be off as well - think of the cross cection of the fender having a ‘C’ section, where the top of the ‘C’ is the scuttle interface and the bottom being the sill front cover.

The other side seems too big but slightly twisted. Both are going to have to be heated and reset.

Not sure I would ever go GRP fenders again...
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Old 08-26-2018, 06:13 AM
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Assuming that the tub is not deformed and that your fitment problem is hood related, there is a much better way to resolve the problem, in broad strokes:

Grind off about 4 - 5" of the Gel Coat on each side of the hood.

Install hood so that it is properly centered to the cowl vent and properly fitted/latched at the front.

Properly fit front fenders and install with only 3 or 4 bolts

Prepare 4 - 5" beyond the fender flange so that body filler can be applied to the fender surface

Using a wide Spreader straddle the gap between the hood and the fender and apply about a 1/4" thick coat of fiber impregnated body filler to both panels.

Before the body filler sets up too hard, run a box knife along the fender flange.

Open the the gap up between the edge of the hood and the fender mounting flange to about 3/16" so that once the body filler has set so that you can easily open & close the hood

Using the appropriate grinder, contour grind the fender to the hood so that you have a flush fit.

Apply additional filler to both surfaces as required and repeat prior step.

Remove hood and apply filler around edges on the underside to blend them into the inner liner.

Re- Install hood and open up gaps for the desired clearance
Old 08-28-2018, 05:30 PM
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Wow - Thanks Peter. That really is a different way of tackling this beast!
Thanks for taking the time to post the suggestion.
I think I’ll give it one more try the prior way and then, if I’m still completely off, I’ll give that a go.
There has to be some advantage to having a GRP hood and fenders!
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Old 08-28-2018, 06:10 PM
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petercory
 
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Having been a Cobra Replica Mfg. for 18 yrs, this is the procedure we followed to attain perfect & consistent gaps on Hoods, Doors and Deck Lids as well a perfectly flush fit between them and the adjacent panels when preparing cars for "in house" for painting.

Once you've got the hood completed and the fenders and doors properly aligned, you can repeat the process with them and your door to fender and panel gaps and fit will also be perfect.

I think that you will find that many nationally respected shops preparing Porsche's for show purposes follow a similar procedure.

Last edited by petercory; 08-29-2018 at 04:53 PM..
Old 08-29-2018, 12:11 PM
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Thank you. I appreciate the advice
It’s a big step, (to me) but I’ll give it a go!

Can you suggest a product name for the fiber impregnated body filler or do you mix that yourself?
Thanks again.
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Last edited by Munky King; 09-01-2018 at 10:01 AM..
Old 09-01-2018, 09:58 AM
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Well after many many more hours than I expected, the front end is kind of getting together.
Still a little way to go, but most of that will be screwing the thing in place and cleaning up.


But as with any minor victories, there was a small casualty...


The hood jumped off my head as I was balancing it while trying to reset it. It dropped into the hole and nearly hit the floor where the gas tank was missing from.

So what have I learned, other than bodywork with GRP is a pretty vertical learning curve...

What I should have done:

When backdating with a long hood with short hood inner, first place the hood. Get it as central as possible. CAREFULLY CLOSE the hood. Watch for contact at the scuttle by the windshield or along painted surfaces as you close it.

If the hood seems a little narrow, push it down the chassis rails as far as possible, making the gap by the windshield scuttle as large as you dare or as large as the hinges will let you.

If you are going it alone with the hood placement (not recommended) place a thick cloth on the scuttle that is taped into place (so it won’t slip) covering the two pointy bits where each upper corner of the hood would otherwise meet them. This not only gives you a good first chance of getting a reasonable gap, but also protects your bodywork.

Shim up the hood with washers if needed to get the hood flush with the scuttle panel. This can be done with a single washer in the back, between the hood and the hinge, or with washers in both.

Make sure you have a hood seal in place, (I used tape to hold mine temporarily in place) as this makes a big difference to the height of the hood.

If you are off on the side to side by a few mm, then the hinges can be bent ever so slightly by pushing on them and the hood in the direction you need the movement.

Move the seal out of the way, so that it doesn’t get damaged or affect your initial fitting.

Cut off or otherwise remove the bumper mounts for the suspension tube. Either cut in part or the whole thing, depending on your future plans for the front bumper etc. I just trimmed mine down for now, but will be coming back to it later.

Test fit the fender by pushing and holding it as far up against the door ‘V’ as possible. Check out your door to fender gap. Looking good? If not take out the extra material stopping it from being in a good position. Remember, this may be at the ‘V’, but it could also be at the door upright flange. Mine needed a little ‘hammer’ persuasion!

A couple of times I used a thin piece of kids modeling putty to work out where the touch point was. Seemed very helpful.

Check not only the door gap, but also height of the top of the fender against the windshield scuttle and also the fit around the sill next to the door bottom.

Pop the hood seal back in place and close the hood. Now hold the fender back on, while pushing down slightly at the latch of the hood (if the latch isn’t on yet) and make sure the height of the fender to the hood is okay along the length.

Open the hood, pull off the hood seal again and prop the hood open.

Now that the fender is roughly fitting, hold the fender in place and drill from the inside of the trunk, through the mounting holes into the fender in a couple of places. Thread a couple of bolts and washers through and tighten.

Remember that you will have the sticky seal along the edge, by the chassis rail for final fitting.

Replace the seal and see how it is now almost crushed into place. Close the hood and check out your lines.

If needed, (lucky you if you don’t) ‘tap’ the chassis rails (see above for definition of ‘tap’) until you get approximate alignment. As 962 Porsche suggests, a big hammer and a foot long piece of hardwood. Softwood just doesn’t cut it and a straight hammer creates too local a dent.

Do this by removing the fender, hood and seal - then putting them back on again (and off, and on, and off and on etc in my case).

Once it all looks good, drill the rest of the holes as before on an installed fender from inside the hood.

Once you remove the fender again, wonder how far out the dimples are that mark where drilling would have been suggested, and how far off either your car is or their mold is!

I used a paper template to transfer the scuttle bolt locations and would recommend drilling through for the vertical flanges, rather then trying to reuse the captive bolts.

Now repeat on the other fender.

This will probably lead to some further movement of the hood, to even out the gaps. If you are unlucky, you may have to recreate the gap as Peter has suggested above. Or big hammering again as per 962 Porsche’s kind and patient suggestions above.

I will need to clean up the gap distance on my hood to fender as one side isn’t very straight.

And under no circumstances, balance the hood on your head when placing it!

Hope this helps someone out there thinking of tackling this job in future!
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Last edited by Munky King; 09-04-2018 at 02:31 AM..
Old 09-03-2018, 08:21 PM
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It's been a while, but I recollect the brand of the filler was Evercoat but I believe that similar products are available from several manufacturers; I'd check with a knowledgeable local Body Shop Supplier.
Old 09-05-2018, 05:28 PM
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