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can these quarter panels be saved?...

ok, so the green car is done (mostly) and on the road racking up miles. yay.

it's time for me to dive into my '74 which will be getting into metal work and paint in a few months. the car currently has SC flares that were lap welded and very (and i mean VERY) poorly done. my hope was that the original quarters were in tact enough to just cut the SC flares off and butt weld some RS flares on. i took the paint and a sea of bondo down to the welds to see what i have to work with.

i'm not optimistic that i can save the existing quarter panels for two reasons. first, they were welded HOT and the seams literally shrank .5-.75" in spots, hence the gallons of bondo. second, the SC flares that were scabbed on seem to have been cut much higher up the quarter than i normally see, about 10" at the top. the quarter extends about 1" down underneath the flare, but it is so deformed i can't see it being any good.

i have a month or so to figure out how i want to go about fixing this. the two most likely scenarios in my mind are to try and find some used SC quarter panels (not easy) or just buy new SC quarter panels (pricey). either way, the RS flare idea seems to be out the window unless these panels can somehow be saved.









i'm already going to be welding in a partial front pan, welding up the sunroof, and doing a few other small spots on the car. going to strip the tub, take it down to bare metal for a color change. i'm looking for a good long term fix, not a driver quality, get it back on the road fix. this will be a fairly high end build.

thoughts?...
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Old 08-04-2018, 04:04 PM
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dkbautosports.com
 
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i think you know the answer to your question.
they totally hacked up and should be replaced.
Old 08-04-2018, 05:06 PM
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Jon Bingham
 
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I may be able to save them
Old 08-09-2018, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMetalSurgeon View Post
I may be able to save them
intriguing.
there is only one way to get ride of all the bad welding and thats to cut it out and reweld then your still dealing with warped panels from bad welding.
say you are able to hammer and dolly every thing bad into shape again and it is possible to some degree then grind the welds to look like something and then weld up all the pin holes in the crap weld job on there .
i'm wondering as to way some one would even try ?
the time alone is more then it takes to just cut the hack work off and buy new panels and weld them on correctly with no warpage and needing at most a skin coat of filler over the welded seam.
it's just not cost effective!
Old 08-10-2018, 06:28 AM
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Jon Bingham
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 962porsche View Post
intriguing.
there is only one way to get ride of all the bad welding and thats to cut it out and reweld then your still dealing with warped panels from bad welding.
say you are able to hammer and dolly every thing bad into shape again and it is possible to some degree then grind the welds to look like something and then weld up all the pin holes in the crap weld job on there .
i'm wondering as to way some one would even try ?
the time alone is more then it takes to just cut the hack work off and buy new panels and weld them on correctly with no warpage and needing at most a skin coat of filler over the welded seam.
it's just not cost effective!
as i said i Might be able to save them.Seeing them in person would give me a better evaluation.
By your response you clearly know better.....

Last edited by TheMetalSurgeon; 08-10-2018 at 07:05 AM..
Old 08-10-2018, 06:36 AM
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dkbautosports.com
 
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it's not as much of a matter of if you can repair them or not.
we are not talking about some rare car or panel.
owning a restoration shop for 40 years and part of it was just porsches only i ran into this countless times and i mean countless!
flares are not a high dollar item and to cut the old hacked up ones off straighten the QTR and then weld new flares on is the most cost effective way to do the repair.
book times for adding turbo flares is 3.8 hours per side any metal guy should be able to beat that time easy.
looking at the pics and the OP stating it's sucked down .5 to .75 " and dealing with a poorly mig welded seams your thinking it's worth repairing ?
as you may know you also have the underside of the panel that has to look proper. you maybe able to hide some ugliness with body filler on one side but on both the top side and under side?
sorry it's just not cost effective.
Old 08-10-2018, 08:11 AM
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Jon Bingham
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 962porsche View Post
it's not as much of a matter of if you can repair them or not.
we are not talking about some rare car or panel.
owning a restoration shop for 40 years and part of it was just porsches only i ran into this countless times and i mean countless!
flares are not a high dollar item and to cut the old hacked up ones off straighten the QTR and then weld new flares on is the most cost effective way to do the repair.
book times for adding turbo flares is 3.8 hours per side any metal guy should be able to beat that time easy.
looking at the pics and the OP stating it's sucked down .5 to .75 " and dealing with a poorly mig welded seams your thinking it's worth repairing ?
as you may know you also have the underside of the panel that has to look proper. you maybe able to hide some ugliness with body filler on one side but on both the top side and under side?
sorry it's just not cost effective.
You can only speak for your own capabilities and efficiency.
I can only speak for my skills and efficiency ,irrespective of how long you have been in the industry.

3.8 hrs per side ? book time? that's collision standard not high end restoration standard ,sorry!

what welding method are you using?

Last edited by TheMetalSurgeon; 08-10-2018 at 12:08 PM..
Old 08-10-2018, 11:50 AM
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The Mighty Pieholio
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 962porsche View Post
looking at the pics and the OP stating it's sucked down .5 to .75 " and dealing with a poorly mig welded seams your thinking it's worth repairing ?
as you may know you also have the underside of the panel that has to look proper. you maybe able to hide some ugliness with body filler on one side but on both the top side and under side?
sorry it's just not cost effective.
I am following you guys intently. A robust wrestling match is not a crime.

962, are you thinking it's not worth repairing given magnitude of the hack job?

Not challenging, just not fully understanding.
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Old 08-10-2018, 01:07 PM
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if your wondering if it could be repaired yes with time just about any thing can be.
my self being more then capable of building any panel for any car is not the point nor is metal surgeon being able to repair it. hell the facts are there are many good metal fab people out there that could repair it.
the point is why? it's not cost effective to do so.
as metal surgeon is new on this site he has no idea i'm sure of the shop i owned and the types of cars we restored.
the simple point is there are book times for doing flares and book times are no matter if it's for a high end car or not. shocking that even hand built high end cars have book times . no matter of it's a collision repair or part of a restoration the adding of a flare is still the same job and have to be done to the same factory quality with no body fillers used.
metal surgeon if your replacing a full QTR panel on a 911 your not going to write the estimate by book time? from your comment your going to take longer i'm feeling to do the same high quality job you should be able to do faster then factory book times?
from what your say that if the guy gets into a collision with his old 911 your standards some how are different because it was in a collision? a high end insurance comes into the shop and they like me write the estimate by book times.
the same goes for any panel on any car restoration or not you still have to have prefect gaps and done to the highest quality.
we are not talking a honda or toyota but even if we would have done them we would have done the jobs to highest quality. a side note we did restore a toyota 2000GT but it was the only toyota we did.


this is a question you have some of the worse welds that can be done and if your straightening the panel your going to leave them like that even if you did spend the time to work the metal back so you would not have to do any filler work at all?
welds like that would never be aloud on anything coming out of my shop.
looking at the pics my guess is the two panels were over lapped this is also a big wrong.
the panels from the factory were butt welded so talking high end you do not over lap the panels as doing it high end you want to replicate just how the factory did them.


BOB i have seen so many bad flares that people have done i can't even count them all.
there is no wrestling match IMO. i simply would not write what i'm seeing in the pic as a repair for what is there.
Old 08-10-2018, 02:39 PM
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The Mighty Pieholio
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 962porsche View Post
BOB i have seen so many bad flares that people have done i can't even count them all.
there is no wrestling match IMO. i simply would not write what i'm seeing in the pic as a repair for what is there.
Thanks for the reply.

Wrestling match was meant in a favorable way because it's fun to observe those in the know argue a bit. How about dissenting opinions? More diplomatic, maybe?

The original body does overlap under the new flares as stated by OP in the first post. Says it's pretty skunky looking.
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Old 08-10-2018, 04:48 PM
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Jon Bingham
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 962porsche View Post
if your wondering if it could be repaired yes with time just about any thing can be.
my self being more then capable of building any panel for any car is not the point nor is metal surgeon being able to repair it. hell the facts are there are many good metal fab people out there that could repair it.
the point is why? it's not cost effective to do so.
as metal surgeon is new on this site he has no idea i'm sure of the shop i owned and the types of cars we restored.
the simple point is there are book times for doing flares and book times are no matter if it's for a high end car or not. shocking that even hand built high end cars have book times . no matter of it's a collision repair or part of a restoration the adding of a flare is still the same job and have to be done to the same factory quality with no body fillers used.
metal surgeon if your replacing a full QTR panel on a 911 your not going to write the estimate by book time? from your comment your going to take longer i'm feeling to do the same high quality job you should be able to do faster then factory book times?
from what your say that if the guy gets into a collision with his old 911 your standards some how are different because it was in a collision? a high end insurance comes into the shop and they like me write the estimate by book times.
the same goes for any panel on any car restoration or not you still have to have prefect gaps and done to the highest quality.
we are not talking a honda or toyota but even if we would have done them we would have done the jobs to highest quality. a side note we did restore a toyota 2000GT but it was the only toyota we did.


this is a question you have some of the worse welds that can be done and if your straightening the panel your going to leave them like that even if you did spend the time to work the metal back so you would not have to do any filler work at all?
welds like that would never be aloud on anything coming out of my shop.
looking at the pics my guess is the two panels were over lapped this is also a big wrong.
the panels from the factory were butt welded so talking high end you do not over lap the panels as doing it high end you want to replicate just how the factory did them.


BOB i have seen so many bad flares that people have done i can't even count them all.
there is no wrestling match IMO. i simply would not write what i'm seeing in the pic as a repair for what is there.



Quote 'my self being more then capable of building any panel for any car'

the floor is yours educate me on how great you are or were

Post some pics of any panel for any car you've made from scratch on this thread.
Old 08-10-2018, 05:47 PM
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dude don't get all upset.
rereading your 1st posting and looking at it in a different light my guess is you were just boosting.
us like millions of others can work metals BFD.

as for agreeing of the quality of the repair to the qtr's on that 911 IMO i wouldn't try or bother.
reasons
1st over lapped panels potential for rust.
2nd labor to straighten. faster to cut clean up and replace
3rd quality of there welds
4th cost effectiveness lower cost to replace then repair
5th to replicate how they used to be done at the factory
6th to warranty the work leaving my shop
Old 08-11-2018, 03:52 AM
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Jon Bingham
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 962porsche View Post
dude don't get all upset.
rereading your 1st posting and looking at it in a different light my guess is you were just boosting.
us like millions of others can work metals BFD.

as for agreeing of the quality of the repair to the qtr's on that 911 IMO i wouldn't try or bother.
reasons
1st over lapped panels potential for rust.
2nd labor to straighten. faster to cut clean up and replace
3rd quality of there welds
4th cost effectiveness lower cost to replace then repair
5th to replicate how they used to be done at the factory
6th to warranty the work leaving my shop

So here we go,

my first entry 'I may be able to save them'

hence the word 'MAY' and you tie the word boasting to this statement.

Why couldn't you except ,its just another opinion from 'another professional' in the industry? Regardless of your opinion and move on?

So the classic spin with your last entry

Instead you had to write essays about your Greatness in the industry and im a newbie to the site.....it clearly states ive been a member since 2013!

followed by
'my self being more then capable of building any panel for any car'


So the classic spin with your last entry
stating im upset ,when your probably the one upset as i may of dented your large EGO by asking

'Post some pics of any panel for any car you've made from scratch on this thread'.

i offered you the floor ,you replied with more ramblings

you couldn't show me the goods ,i think we both know what conclusion that brings.

PLEASE don't reply with more hot air,i think we'd both agree this has run its course now and move on to other threads.

Thanks
Jon Bingham
The Metal Surgeon
3852 S Kalamath st
Englewood co80210
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Old 08-11-2018, 08:00 AM
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it's no here we go !

i have posted a few times my work. a few years ago you simply could have gone to my web page for the business and seen all you want to.
i see no point as to do it now with all the hot air!
i unlike others do not come on this site to show off and boost my skills or business i come here only to try and help others.
the 1st reason i didn't promote my business is there was never a need to do so.

if you take i'm so great i am sorry for that but with 50 postings in five years you sure are not all to active. then maybe try and help people.
the point if whether or not you can maybe fix a crap install of flares does nothing to help the fact it's not worth repairing.
you mentioned about high end cars sorry i replied as to that was all my shop used to work on and being so we write our estimates off book time for the normal repairs.not talking about fab work as the topic is not about fab work.
being a high end hand built car you would want to replicate just how there were built at the factory to maintain the value of the car.
1st in doing so is how the flare was welded on. being the 1st wrong we would cut them off to maintain the value of the car.



you offered me the floor and then said don't reply back.
i feel bad about the misunderstanding we have had
Old 08-11-2018, 10:23 AM
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We likely wouldn't speak to one another in person as we are sometimes inclined to via the screens of a forum.

962, you're always a helpful pro voice on this forum, somewhat local to me here in the Nutmeg State, even though we've never met. Mr. Bingham is also a very skilled guy, he does incredible work. If you rewind this thread, note that his response wasn't nasty or threatening; it would be interesting to hear how he might approach the required repair**. I respectfully submit you jumped him, but I'm assuming you were having a bad day. I have done similar. I then felt like a complete d-bag and said I was sorry.

At the risk of quoting Rodney King ("Can't we all just get along?") that IS what I'd ask for here, a place I spend more time now precisely to escape the way the country is being cleaved into pieces by those who value making their own point over being civil to one another. You're excellent at what you do AND SO IS THE OTHER GUY. We all win by listening.

** How MIGHT the Metal Surgeon approach this? I'm going to chance a guess: mark out a strip, say 1.5" on either side of the nasty lap joint weld and English wheel/power hammer a filler strip, then weld that in between the quarter and the flair, using a TiG. Just a guess.
Old 08-11-2018, 12:14 PM
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The Mighty Pieholio
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeffries View Post
I respectfully submit you jumped him, but I'm assuming you were having a bad day.
I like Jon's work after seeing his stuff in a separate thread.

962 pushed back with his view of the facts as known.

"You clearly know better" with rolleyes made by Jon was the comment that started the shiet storm.

Just my take.

You should not drop comments like that and expect a big ol' hug in return.

That said, I have apologized many times for spouting off, as you say, while stressed out about something totally unrelated to the topic at hand. However, I have only been banned three times.
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Last edited by Bob Kontak; 08-11-2018 at 01:44 PM..
Old 08-11-2018, 01:36 PM
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Bob, you're right. Now I owe 962 an apology. It took two for this tango. I'd invite all you guys to come and have a beer or ice cream and a group hug but the logistics would be tough (attempt at humor). Respect to all, please keep posting and sharing the knowledge. John
Old 08-11-2018, 03:01 PM
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The Mighty Pieholio
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjeffries View Post
Bob, you're right. Now I owe 962 an apology.
Nah. 962 has his ego defined. He can roll with it.

He is his own man. Enviable, frankly.

Thanks for supporting peace.

Ice cream, where? I am down.
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Old 08-11-2018, 04:17 PM
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no one owes any one an apology.
one thing about forums is it's not talking like you would face to face you do not get a tone of voice in a written word this alone will lead to a misunderstanding.
i did say i read what he wrote wrong but either way i still look at it as boosting.
i clearly listed as to why you replace or would want to.
as for egos we all have them i had a shop full of them with the guys i had working for me before i retired and yes me too. you can;t get to the top of your game with out having one.
i think one thing different from the people that post there work and do this crap for a living and me is i look at it as boosting to what they do and are looking to promote them selves. i never had the need to do this or felt the need to do so. if you wanted to see the work my shop put out all you had to do is go to my old web site and look.i retired closed up the shop and the web site is no longer up having no need for it .even with the few posting i did post my self you could see all aspects of the work i did from metal to top coat. but promoting my self is never the reason i came to this site it was to help if i could the DIY people. so me posting things about me and the look what i can do crap was out to a point anyways i do post some stuff on FB for my friends to see.

i do not hold any grudges and i do respect other that work with the hands.

did some one say ice cream? i love ice cream.

Last edited by 962porsche; 08-12-2018 at 05:35 PM..
Old 08-12-2018, 05:32 PM
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Jon Bingham
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 962porsche View Post
no one owes any one an apology.
one thing about forums is it's not talking like you would face to face you do not get a tone of voice in a written word this alone will lead to a misunderstanding.
i did say i read what he wrote wrong but either way i still look at it as boosting.
i clearly listed as to why you replace or would want to.
as for egos we all have them i had a shop full of them with the guys i had working for me before i retired and yes me too. you can;t get to the top of your game with out having one.
i think one thing different from the people that post there work and do this crap for a living and me is i look at it as boosting to what they do and are looking to promote them selves. i never had the need to do this or felt the need to do so. if you wanted to see the work my shop put out all you had to do is go to my old web site and look.i retired closed up the shop and the web site is no longer up having no need for it .even with the few posting i did post my self you could see all aspects of the work i did from metal to top coat. but promoting my self is never the reason i came to this site it was to help if i could the DIY people. so me posting things about me and the look what i can do crap was out to a point anyways i do post some stuff on FB for my friends to see.

i do not hold any grudges and i do respect other that work with the hands.

did some one say ice cream? i love ice cream.


I have one more question for you.

Have you read any of my threads on this forum or multiple others i frequent on?

If you have ,like for example this active thread on Pelican right now

Porsche reSee works build

....and you dont see a step by step picture of how to build each item for anyone to copy or at least show the process of how i got to the final product ,well shame on me then.

Do you see me holding my me holding all my build pictures to ransom ,forcing people to have to come to my shop if they want that same product or build?

i could easily just post the final picture and most wouldnt know how i got there,but i dont and never have in all the years ive been posting to threads.Always an open book step by step.

Again if you regard that as boasting ,then again, shame on me.


thank you!
Old 08-15-2018, 05:36 AM
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