Help preparing for glasurit paint job

[MST0118]

Hey Guys,

I am looking for a painter to paint my 73 911 rs clone in the next month or so after the body work is complete. I plan to paint it black, and it has been challenging to find a shop that is wiling to use a single stage Glasurit 22 paint here in Nor Cal as most shops want to use a 2 stage process.

For that reason, I'm planning to buy the materials and find someone that has experience with this paint to do the single stage 22 Glas job. I've been researching this forum, and it's great but still have a few questions about this process which are:

1) how much black Glas base coat paint should I get to paint the car completely like a factory job for the entire car (outside, inside, jams, trunk, bottom, etc.? I am assuming that two coats would be sufficient but not sure how many quarts that would take?
2) What BASF primer would go well with this paint and how much would be needed?
3) What other paint related products should I get (excluding sandpaper, etc)?
4) Is special equipment needed to shoot Glas 22 or can any experienced auto painter use their standard spray guns, equipment, etc.

Any advice on this is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[keith28]

1)1 gl of 22 line color(its not base coat)will be more than enough and you will have some left over should you need it in the future.22 line is getting harder to source so get it while/if you can.The mixing ratio is 2:1:10% topcoat:hardener:reducer.(929/94 slow hardener and 352-216 slow reducer).

2)285-13 is a good all round DTM primer which can be used on steel,aluminum and fiberglass.
The mixing ratio is 4:1 with hardener 929/53.You will need a gallon to start with depending on bodywork and re priming and blocking as needed.
3)You will need pre-cleaners(bare metal,normal 900,water 700-1 and raw plastic 541-30.
4)Normal spray guns.
Special regulations for California VOC requirements may prevail and limit your choices.As well as paint booth,temperature and humidity conditions.
Many experienced painters will shy away from using 22 line as it is unforgiving and that is why they want to use base/clear which is a lot more user friendly so good luck finding a painter.Make sure he has experience with 22 line as it is not the same as other (inferior) single stage urethane acrylic topcoats.
Your painter may also want to use a sealer prior to topcoating and will probably have a preference on which product he prefers.

[bpu699]

Just curious, why is that paint "unforgiving"? Is it particular to that brand?

I have used single stage paints to paint cars (Novice here), and it seemed pretty easy to do. And you can wet sand and buff many imperfections out.

Why is base/clear easier? It seems that its a lot more work, and the clear tends to run unless you are really good at applying it.

I understand that touch up are easier with base/clear. But is painting an entire care easier also? Seems like a lot more work.

Bo

[962porsche]

depending on how the car is painted will depend on how much product you will burn thru painting the car .
if your spraying the car all apart (fenders , doors and so on off ) you will use more then a gal. of color . you will go thru about 5 QT's of 22 line .
22 line is a 2 coat system but if your looking to color sand and buff 3 coats would be better to still have the proper mil build after .

primer :
this is hard to say how much you will need .
you did not state if you were going to prime the hole car or spot prime over your repair areas ans seal and top coat over the finish on the car that still maybe good.
at times primer every thing is a waste of materials and is not needed if the substrate is fine .

you could uses a DTM primer like 285-10 or 285-13 but the down side to them is there are not chromated . personally when we go over any bare metal areas we always use a chromated primer like the 801-703 or the RM EP primer line .
then over the top of that with the Glasurit 285-60 primer .
we have many of the glasurit primers on our mixing machines but use more of the 285-60 them any of the others .
the 285-60 can also be mixed as a tinted sealer so it's a bubble duty product .

paint related products will include lint free wipe down rages , prep body work cleaner like RM's 900 , prep paint cleaner RM's 901 , tack rages . if your not doing the painting then the shop would have all this stuff on hand and there would be no real need for you to buy it .

again if a shop is going to paint the car for you they should have all the guns they would need for applying products . if the shop is using a gravity feed gun then for the 22 line a 1.3 to 1.5 setup in the gun is needed . for the 22 line I find 1.3 with HVLP is best for me and my gun speed and over lap .

because most shops out there are collision repair shops and now that most every thing is Base / clear many shops along with jobbers (auto paint stores) do not deal with single stage products like glasurit 22 line .
this is were the restoration shops come into play like mine .
the only collision work we do is on high end cars and the only resto's we do are also on higher end cars . we let the run of the mill shops take care of peoples Honda's and Nissan's .
you will pay more per hour at a resto shop but the out comes is worth it your 1st going to have a person that knows the in's and out's of single stage paints then unlike the run of the mill shop it's not filler work for the guys in the shop to work on when they are slow with collision work .

if your finding it hard to get single stage products were you are you can mail order it .
paul francis and co. in ct can ship out what your needs are . call them at 203 468 8126 ask for George and only him ! PFC is a BASF jobber and only BASF they stock all BASF products .
because CAL. and CT have about the same VOC rules you can use what they offer here in CT. in CAL.

[962porsche]

Originally Posted by bpu699

Just curious, why is that paint "unforgiving"? Is it particular to that brand?

I have used single stage paints to paint cars (Novice here), and it seemed pretty easy to do. And you can wet sand and buff many imperfections out.

Why is base/clear easier? It seems that its a lot more work, and the clear tends to run unless you are really good at applying it.

I understand that touch up are easier with base/clear. But is painting an entire care easier also? Seems like a lot more work.

Bo

it's not unforgiving at all . they are simply just different .

again one is not easier then the other to spray . what could be easier is the blending out of the two base clear to SS . many that have little to no experience will get lost in blending out a single stage product .

what some like about base clear is if some thing screws up in the base you can stop and fix it . this can not be done with SS .
your car came with it and if your looking to do a resto then SS is the way to go .
if you went to show the car you would lose points if the car was painted in base clear .

[Jose_JGC]

Single stage paint is much more delicate to maintain than 2 stage paint, but it does make these cars look closer to new. I also painted mine with SS Glasurit and to protect it I give it a coat of a product called Collinite 845 once a year.

[MST0118]

Thanks guys for all the info.

To give you more background on the car, this was a 72 911T roller (no eng or tranny) that had been converted to a turbo body short hood by one of the previous owners before the seller sold it to me. The front end was butchered up good and there was rust in the rear parcel shelf and right rear set. So, I purchased new OEM rs quarter panels, new fenders, front latch panel, long hood, and other parts. Then, I stripped the car down and I have a friend who owns a large powder coating company that baked the chassis in his oven to burn off all paint and undercoating, etc. He then blasted it for me and powdercoated the chassis.

Now, I have a guy who's doing just the metal work so that it looks like an rs clone and the goal is to have it all gaps correct and also no bondo whatsoever. The reason I say this is that maybe I'll need the chromated primer for the new quarter panels, fenders, and new doors skins. The chassis is powdercoated with DuPont primer but nothing on fenders, outer door skins, complete rear rs quarter panels, front latch panel, and rear parcel shelf.

When the body is close to complete, I can post a few pictures to see if there are other things that need to be considered. I do want to paint in pieces so I'll plan on 5 quarts and will go for 3 coats. I thought that I saw somewhere that black only needed 2 coats, so it is good to know that I should plan for 3.

962Porsche, thank you for providing Paul Francis's info. I may need to get the paint through him.

[keith28]

Unforgiving because if you want to apply it how you want it to look when it is finished in two coats you will be pushing the limit on looking good or overdoing it(runs,sags,fat edges etc).If you are not able to do this then you could go with 3 coats and sand and buff to achieve a finish which will look like it has been sanded and buffed unlike the original finish on a Porsche from the 70's but more like a Rolls Royce. You will also use 50% more 22 line and may well need more than 1 gallon.
I am an experienced painter and have used different brands of SS and I personally consider 22 unforgiving given the above but I do not use it every day and that is why I advised you to try and find a painter who is familiar with 22 line.You will then get the result you want without wasting material and spending more money on a heavy sand and buff which is much more difficult with 22 line than clearcoat.
One gallon of 22 Line will make over 6qts sprayable.

[962porsche]

I would not totally agree with the statement of 3 coats you will run a risk of runs sags solvent pops or any other problems .
you would still have to give the finish proper flash time between coats .
wit 22 line you can go up to 4 coats max . as a ex BASF factory rep the standard amount of coats is 2 to 3 for proper mil build .
now as a shop owner were we only work on high end cars we will at times need to apply the 4 coats max with some colors like reds , yellows and orange's .
we just did a Ferrari in yellow doing one tack coat and 3 wet coats . let the booth run for 20 to 30 minutes then turn it to the bake cycle for 30 minutes at 160 degrees .

Porsche back in the day used urethane enamels for there coatings now the equal to that would be limco 3 and not the 22 line system that is a polyester urethane .

then because the car is going black it's no dough going to show every little thing in the finish so you will be spot sanding and buffing out any little nug that's in the finish .
many years ago I was one of the dept heads of coating at Porsche AG .


Porsche also did the same thing with there cars back them and still do to a point .
Porsche's were hand built though the panels were stamped out they were still hand fitted to the cars .

[MST0118]

I appreciate all the feedback and am learning a lot. I did some additional research on primers, and there was a post saying that RM's EP589 is potentially better for dark colors, so have some follow-up questions on the primer and sealer before trying to formulate my order.

1. Would EP589 be a better primer for my black color since it is a darker color or am I okay with the other primers listed above?
2. Should I have the painter apply a chromated primer to the new Porsche body panels before applying the epoxy primer?
3. Should more than 1 coat of epoxy primer be applied.
4. Should the 1.3 size for HVLP be used for the primer in addition to the top coat or is another size recommended for these chromated and epoxy primers?
5. Also, how much prep body work cleaner and prep paint cleaner would be needed for a full 911 paint job like mine? I may have to provide these to shop.
6. What is the optimal time to let the paint set before it is color sanded/buffed?
7. How do you mix 285-60 as a tinted sealer? Can you do this when priming the car and take car of sealing at the same time or does it require another coat? What's the formula for this.

I realize the shop/painter should know these things, but I'm finding that many use other products, so just want to get a good understanding of the proper way to do it, which will help me find the right shop. Thanks again.

[keith28]

1)Because Black 22 line topcoat has such excellent opacity the color of the undercoat does not matter.
2)Most shops/painters will not use a chromated primer nowadays because it is a known carcinogen and for this reason also may not even be legal or available in Ca.You may have difficulty getting someone to even take on your job with your specs as they will probably want to keep it simple and go with a DTM urethane primer only and unless they are experienced with your proposed under coat system they may not be willing to warranty any future issues/failures.I appreciate that you want the best possible in terms of endurance and modern DTM primer fillers are part of a system which is guaranteed for life if applied by a certified painter and shop which uses the proper equipment.I'm not saying dont go with a chromated primer and an epoxy primer just not really needed on a car that will not be out in wet salted conditions 365 days of the year for eternity.
3)Only 1 coat of epoxy primer is required for adhesion.Cannot be applied over body filler or polyester spray filler.Bare metal only or fiberglass.
4)Most painters use a 1.7 tip for primers.
5)About 1 qt of each water,plastic and general pre cleaner but the shop should have them in gallons for use as needed.
6)Hopefully 962porsche will advise on the optimal time before sand and buff as he uses it often.
7)285-60 as a sealer is mixed 1:1:1:1,primer:55 base coat:929/53 hardener:352/50,352/91 or 352/216 reducer.

[962porsche]

depending on that way you mix the 801-1552 epoxy primer it can be used under a spray filler and go over body fillers . though there is not a real good reason to use it over products like body fillers .

the hole point of using a chromated epoxy primer is to replace the thin zinc coating that was removed when a car is stripped to bare metal .

when your finished with your body work you apply more just over the bare metal areas . there is not real need to spray over your body filler it's self but it can be again depending on the mix you pick .

products like epoxy primers have not been eliminated in states like CAL. and CT. were we have the highest national rules of sprayables out of all 50 states .what CO's like BASF have done is change some of the catalysts /hardeners and or the mixing ratios used in the products.

again depending on the mix you would pick for the job your doing you would or could use a 1.7 setup in the gun but most painters will have the needle, tip and cap size as you would use the 1.3 to a 1.5 for spraying the epoxy as a non high build primer and using it as the one to two coat adhesion / low build primer .

again the reasons why you would use it is to replace the zinc coating that was removed in the stripping proses . to protect the bare metal as the car sits when your doing the body work .
and to help aid in the total protection of the metal substrate .

don't get me wrong I like DTM primers but not for resto's . there are great products for production shops on your every day type drivers that on most cases wont last long enough on this earth to ever see a resto .
the same could be said for spray fillers they have a place in this world but we tend to only use it on composite panels not steel or aluminum .

the products you pick has to do with the car your working on .
we have in my shop the 90 line for the newer cars , the 55 line for the older base clear cars the 22 line for the older single stage cars and then the limco supreme plus system for the race cars .
when picking your undercoats it has to do with the type of top coats your looking to use and the use of the car .


when it comes to sanding and polishing it has more to do with cure time the time on the clock .
personally I like to wait until you can push your finger nail on the surface and it does not leave a mark .
I have had some detailers that like to color sand and buff just before the finish gets to full cure .
in the cold of the winter it will take more time to get to full cure then in the heat of the summer .

[MST0118]

Thanks so much 962porsche and keith28 for sharing your expertise and answering my questions.

[MST0118]

Here are a some before and after photos of this car.

This is how the car looked when I purchased it in November 2013





At that point, I stripped it down and took it to a powder coating company in SSF called West Coast Powder Coating. The car chassis and doors were baked at a relatively low temperature which burned all the undercoating and paint off. Then, the car was blasted and powder coated. West Coast does a lot of 911s that way including a real 73 RS which is why I had the work done there.

Here's a couple pictures of that process, and it shows some of the rust and issues.





About a month ago, I took the car to Archer's Metal Shaping in Sonoma, and Norm Archer has almost completed all the metal work which consisted of installing new rs door quarter panels, front fenders, front latch panel, rear seat repair, rear parcel shelf, new door skins, WEVO sway bar mounts, rocker rust repair, straighten floors, and gapped all panels under load. Norm does great work at a reasonable price and works on lots of high end Porsches, Alphas, etc., but he specializes in metal work which is why I'm now looking for the right painter. As of yesterday, here are a couple pics of the car, and the metal work should be completed later this week:









So, just going back to my paint question, it seems that since I don't have much bare metal on the car (with exception of WEVO sway mounts) and because the panels from Porsche are coated as well as the chassis (powder coated), perhaps I don't need chromated primer?

Therefore, do you think an epoxy primer like 285-60, etc. will be good enought after preparing the surface?

[962porsche]

if your using the 285-60 then you should be praying one or two coats of a chromated epoxy primer down 1st on bare metal then going over it with a filler primer .

you could use a DTM primer but personally I like a chromated primer down 1st .
you should not spray a non DTM filler primer over any bare metal that is bigger the a dime .

what keith and I were talking about is the need of a product that will etch like a chromate epoxy on the bare metal .
personally I want a product like a chromated primer down under my filler primer no matter if it's a DTM filler primer or not .

what we would do with new primed panels like your fenders is 1st block the crap out of them with 180 or 220 using what primer they came with as a help to get them panels nice and straight . then spray a coat of epoxy chromated primer down then over the top of that after it flashes off 3 to 4 coats of 285-60 filler primer.
then guide coat the panel and block again either for top coat or for more priming if needed (double priming ) .

[MST0118]

For those that live in NorCal, I found a couple of shops in the Bay Area that sell and mix the Glasurit 22 line (Finishmaster in South San Francisco and San Rafael).

So, just to confirm the paint products needed:

1. 1 gallon of chromated primer or DTM primer?

2. 1 gallon of 285-60 primer?

3. question how much sealer should I get assuming the 1:1:1:1 ratio that Keith mentioned above? 2 quarts or gallon?

4. 5 quarts of Glas 22 black? It will be mixed 2-1-10%, so will probably give me 7 to 8 quarts of mixed paint?

5. Order 1 quart each of precleaners if painter/shop doesn't have them?

[962porsche]

if your using the glasurit epoxy primer as what is called adhesion promoter that would be one coat over the bare metal . 2 QT's is all you would need and not a full Gal .

then one Gal of the 285-60 filler primer .


sealer tinted 285-60 black 2 QT's is more then enough one medium wet coat of sealer is all you should need .

all shops should have pre paint cleaners on hand .

5 to 6 QT's of 22 line color you will end up going thru . but if your area jobber has it on hand buy just one gal at 1st then see just how much they use up and run down and pick up more as needed .

[MST0118]

Thank you 962porsche. Your advice has been very helpful.

[keith28]

You should be aware that if you are using 285-60 it is not an epoxy but a DTM urethane primer filler.
You will be using the same product(285-60)as a sealer only mixed differently as per previous post with the addition of 55 line base coat(not 22 line)so you will need some of that 55-1250 black will tint your sealer dark gray.You will probably need 1 pint if all sealer is applied at the same time but if in several times for different parts of the car you will need 1qt because of wastage.

[MST0118]

Thanks Keith for pointing that out. I thought the reference to Glas 55 for part of the sealer may have been a mistake but you confirmed that I need a quart or more of it for the sealer. Thank you.