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white base/red paint

i have been investigating red paint and related technical issues. today i spoke with a paint dealer that told me the proper way to get red to "flash/jump out/ look vibrant, or other adjectives is to paint a base coat of WHITE. he said that i could use a white primer or a white base coat (enamel/acrylic, or water base). he suggested that it is this reflective base that gives the red the added vavavoomph. sounds reasonable.... have any of you heard of this?

do any of you have an opinion?

(looking to do 64 ruby red)


Last edited by WRGREENER; 03-01-2012 at 07:34 AM.. Reason: clarification
Old 02-29-2012, 06:08 PM
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Reds in my experience are fairly sensitive to the colors you apply them over. I myself, will normally shoot a light color sealer before color application.

Metallic reds are visibly transparent. Candy colors, well they don't call them candy for no reason....
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Old 02-29-2012, 08:32 PM
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for a red you would not in most cases us a straight white under it . that will give it a more pink cast . you would want a light to med color gray . the reason is that the color in that family is translucent not transparent .
do not confuse a candy to a translucent color they are nothing alike at all .
candys for the most part use a met. base color under them like gold or a silver .
were a candy is a transparent color . not all transparent color are candy when a candy color is in a mixxing cup it will look very dark but when you pull the paint stick out of the mixing cup you will see it's very very transparent .
if you have proper coverage with a red ( not a candy red ) the under color will not mater if its reflective like a silver or gold . reflective thats a new ward for the book ???
it will hide any and all the reflectiveness that a color like silver would give . it will not flash / pop or any thing like that . if you use a dark color gray ground coat as it's called the red will look darker than if you used a light gray .
when i was a paint rep and i would get called out to a shop because they could not match a red i found most of the time is was that the shop used the wrong color ground coat . if the car has a very light color gray ground coat that is the same color that should be used when the car gets repainted . most of the time you can see this if you panel paint the color and the flip looks good but the face color is to dark . flip is looking at the panel from the side the face is looking at the panel straight on .
Old 03-18-2012, 01:42 PM
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If you want guards red to come out perfect
White undercoat is mandatory , try it yourself
And you will see .
Old 03-19-2012, 06:50 AM
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as i stated no a pur white ground coat is not what you would want but a very light gray . it's what porsche used when the car was painted new .
as for it being mandatory ! there is nothing like that when it comes to repaints ! glasurit does not state you even need a ground coat under there 027 or 84a color . and what paint CO. are porsche's painted in ????? glasurit ! when i was the dept head at porsche it was the sealer that was a very light gray with no ground coat used at all . as i stated a pur white ground coat gives more of a pink cast to any color in the red family !

Quote:
Originally Posted by AVDCAV View Post
If you want guards red to come out perfect
White undercoat is mandatory , try it yourself
And you will see .
Old 03-19-2012, 07:45 AM
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alrighty... i have prepared a test. i plan to use light grey, dark grey, white, and red oxide undercoat . spray with Ruby Red (64-65 color) and see what happens.. will let you know. thanks for the impute bye-the-way it has been a real challenge to find a manufacture (other than glasurit@ $575/gal+hardner) to match the color code.
Old 03-28-2012, 05:49 PM
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they did not offer RUBY RED MET for 1964 and 1965 .
back then they only offered SINGLE RED and RUBINROT .
RUBY RED was offered
color numbers YEARS
810 1983 to 1988
8A7 2007 to 2009
M3X 2010 to date

if your color is RUBINROT # 6402 for 1964 and 1965 then it's not a bad hiding color .
and you will get coverage in 2 coats .

you could go with some thing like Limco S/S paint . that would run you about 300 dollars for what is needed . color , hardener and the reducer .
it's still a BASF product .
Old 03-29-2012, 05:18 AM
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not looking for "MET" just a single stage rubinrot... i plan to buy a gal. will that do the 2 coats? i am doing jambs and all other parts that need to be red. will ck out limco. thanks.
Old 03-29-2012, 07:17 PM
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i have stated this many times you should never try and use the name of a color you should always use the color code only . as you see with the ruby red color there are 3 color numbers . the color numbers are how you find and mix the color .
will you be painting the under side of the hood , engine cover (trunk lid ) , inside of doors , the trunk , and the engine compartment too ?
if so then you will burn up 3 QTS on that alone .
if i were doing the car i would do it in glasurit . i would be looking at about 900 dolars spent on the materials . sealers , hardeners , and color .
i would use glasurit's 285-60 tinted sealer , 22 line color . that would be if your use for the car was a good weekend car that you could bring to shows .
if your looking for a car just to drive and still have it look good but not brake the bank to do so then i would go with the limco line .
to do every thing i listed your looking at half that 900 dollar cost .
if i were doing it in the limco line i would use there 800K tinted sealer .
Old 03-30-2012, 05:14 AM
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color code it is... inside doors, trunk, & engine compartment (i will allow 3) how much more for the body? your cost est is just about what the paint guy said i should plan on...i did not want to believe him, shows how wrong one can be--or just plain denial. thx
Old 04-04-2012, 05:53 AM
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Scuderia Red

I have never painted a car by myself, nor do I plan to, but when I wanted to re-create a red I had seen in order to have a car painted, I was dismayed at how nobody in the shop or in any paint shop around here knew how to do it. I did not give up and I researched this for a while and turns out that although white has been used by several manufacturers as a base for red, until recently the effect was not as dramatic for the sole reason that paints used to need to have lead as part of the formula and this made the pigments somewhat "dirty" in the sense that it was difficult to have a very "pure" and translucent bright red. Water-based paints now do without the lead content thus allowing for far "cleaner" pigment effect and translucidity (Is this a word?). Ferrari was the first to come out with a super dramatic effect with this about ten years back when they introduced "Scuderia Red" which was a copy of their F1 color. They did it by mixing unleaded bright red with about 15% of translucent yellow tint and spraying three coats of it over white. The incredible effect this color accomplishes is because you never "see" the yellow, this yellow tint acts like yellow tinted glasses or goggles which amplify the ambience light that reflects on the white base. This makes a particularly bright red in low-light conditions unlike every other red with tends to die if not under direct sunlight. Mazda copied the formula about four years ago for their 3 car and recently VW had done it too in some smaller models. It is breathtaking with only two coats, but even if it looks better with two coats of red, it is very difficult to spray evenly(and almost impossible to re-create in the event of an accident) unless you use three coats, which is what I would recommend.
Old 08-10-2012, 09:44 PM
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i'm very familiar with the two makers of cars your talking about . my fab race shop is also a run of the mill body shop we do all the body and paint work for a mazda dealer and have don so for the last 7 1/2 years . my other shop we only do top end car ferrari's , porsche and lambo's is 99 % of the types of cars we work on . then i was a BASF rep for many years and stil do some rep work for them . BASF is the OE supplyer of the paints to ferrari and mazda ferrari uses glasurit and mazda uses RM's paint line .
non ot the ground coats or 1st coats are the pure white base . they do not use a pure white base color for many reasons . the base formulas for the ground coats are this for both the ferrari color and the mazda colors .
black base color 4.3 grams
white base color 79.7 grams
mixing clear /binder no color at all in it
reduce no color at all to it
there are a total of 3 ferrari color they use on ther F1 cars and there are the same as you can buy for any ferrari you order . they are
rosso scuderia met . they use this color for night races
rosso scuderia they use this color for day light races
rosso scuderia there old team color up to 2009 .
the night color has no ghold pearl in it it does have two yellows and a med metallic flake . it is a quad color sprayed over a very light gray base . the base color i stated .
i have paint many ferraris this color .

as for the mazda color .
the photo you show of the mazda 3 if it is what mazda copied from ferrari the color name is colorado red . it has 3 color codes to it A4S / D3 /D34 .
but that car looks to be the mazda color A4A true red . that too uses the same color ground coat as the rest of the reds a very very light gray color .
now the 27A color velocity red has gold pearl in it . but it looks nothing like the color on the car on the photo . it was offered on the 3's, 6's, MX5, and RX8's .
there copy of the ferrari color was not offered on any other models than the MX5's and RX8's .
now for reasons i will not get into all reds not candys . have to have a yellow or orange in the mix or a combo of the two .
but again the reason ypu don't use a pure white is it makes reds have a pink cast to them . also white is a very poor hiding color so it would take instad of the 2 to 3 coats to get proper hiding it will take 6 to 8 coats .
so like i say if your in dought on the fact that you use a very light gray just go to BASF's site and check out the colors and the 1st steps of the two stage color reds . you will see they add black tinting base to them .

Last edited by 962porsche; 08-12-2012 at 12:56 PM..
Old 08-11-2012, 07:38 AM
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not wanting to hijack this thread

But would you use the white sealer under Porsche speed yellow, or tint it light grey also?

Thanks 962
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Old 08-11-2012, 07:02 PM
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if i remember right 1st your doing your car in 22 line ?
then if i rember right there are two speed yellow color numbers and i do think they are the same mixes .
the 1st speed yellow color # is 12G used from 1992 to 2004
the 2nd speed yellow color # is 12H used from 2004 to date
if it's a base clear it is a 3 stage color using a very light gray as it's 1st base or ground coat color . again they use a very light gray for better coverage over a straight white . you could use a straight white under a orange or yellow as it will not do what it does to reds .
so you could use a white sealer under the 12G/H colors .
but i think i said i tend to use the 285-60 tinted and mixed as a sealer . if you use a white tint to mix into the 285-60 you will come up with a very light gray .
so yes you can use a white sealer under your yellows .

Old 08-12-2012, 12:54 PM
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