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Lets get crazy with fiberglass - help me

I have a 83 944 track only car and I orderd the Broadfoot widebody. My friend repairs boats for a living and I have access to cheap fiberglass materials. So Im going to mod the parts coming in.

So I know the basics of fiberglass. I want to make aero mods to the parts coming. Like venting the fiberglass hood. Venting the top of the front fenders. Opening up the wheel wells ( front and rear behind the wheels) to let air out the sides. Custom rear diffuser. Roof skin, etc. I will be very very busy.

Problem #1.

I thought it would be best to buy a fiberglass vent and graft it in, but they are something like $150. Those are the ones with several vents in a row. I wanted a bigger one for the hood, but again those are similar prices. So how am I going to form my own? I thought about getting a speed shop to make a sheet metal on to use as a form or making one out of wood. I would rather buy something but it doesnt seem cost effective. Advice please.

Problem #2. Grafting in a row of vents seems pretty straighforward. But the side vents for behind the wheels seems much more complicated in getting the shape right ( and straight ). Im not sure how to really go about this

Problem #3. Rear diffuser. I will be removing the spare tire carrier and the fuel tank to replace with a cell. I thought I might foam the rear and then shape it. I wanted to integrate the bumper into this piece. Getting the angle of the diffuser correct, the shape etc is going to be difficult. If I cardboard off the underside and then use lots of shaping foam is that going to work to make the shape?

Problem #4. Making a rear hatch. Seems like a complicated piece to make and I wanted to fiberglass the rubber piece thats on the stock part into the piece.
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Last edited by aftermath; 10-03-2012 at 09:43 AM..
Old 10-03-2012, 09:39 AM
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I just finished up a fiberglass front end on my 951. I was considering all the mods you referred too, but was so exhausted just getting everything to fit properly, I decided on waiting a bit! Word of advice.... buy lots and lots of sand paper!

But regarding problem #1, I may have run across an interesting possibility for you. I'm still considering this option myself. While buying my fiberglass supplies at West Marine (boating shop), I discovered a bunch of different exterior vents for boats. A couple of them caught my eye and they were all under $40. Might be an option for you....
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Old 10-03-2012, 10:01 AM
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Resurecting my dead thread. The widebody kit has been sitting all summer for me to install it. I picked up a set of vents from a boat shop that might work. However I searched a lot for vents made form fiberglass, abs, stamped aluminum. The fiberglass was WAY too expensive for something ( in the order of $300 a set ). I would have thought I would find lots of ABS solutions but I didnt, stamped aluminum would work but I hoped to blend in the material to the fiberglass. There has to be some not stupid expensive parts that you can glue\rivit or blend into fiberglass out there, google is my friend but I came up short.

I have some thoughts on how to make the parts myself by molding the aero mod I want to make a part. I see a lot of what I want to do on race cars I see on TV. Now all those are home made parts, I dont really have the skill or time to make parts from scratch but please point me at race aero aftermarket parts if you know where.
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Old 08-30-2013, 11:21 AM
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i have a degree in aerodynamic along with all the programs to build cars .
i also built a tube chassis LS7 powered 944 with a quaife 6 speed sequential gear box that has an all carbon and fiberglass body on it . that was tested for 1000's of hours on a simulator . most of what you plan will do nothing but mess up the air flow over and under the car .
the 1st thing you have to do is go to school and learn about aerodynamics then buy a program to see what it does when air is moving at different speeds over the car .
the 1st bad thing with the 944's body is they have boxed fenders and qtr's making them bigger only adds more drag to the car . venting the tops of the fenders is good but that too has to do with how big the vents are and just were you place them . splitters and diffusers are great but the down side to the stock floors on the 944's are they can't be made the size they have to be to work that too will just add drag with no down force add to the chassis .
venting the hood will again ruin the air flow over the top of the car . sounds good but that is the last thing you would want to do to a car that needs all the down force you can get on the nose . splitters 99% of them don't work at all . the home built ones are by far the most useless ones .
as for the race teams doing aero mods to the cars yes they do they pay business like mine to design them so they work and are also tested to work .
are they one off parts well no we 1st build a plug then from that we make a mold then make the parts .
so what you see on TV may have nothing to do with what the 944 body and chassis needs to give better air flow and more down force with out adding unneeded drag .
Old 08-30-2013, 05:30 PM
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Hi 962. Read many of your posts and today I say the one about your shop. Good to hear your moving in that direction. I almost sent you a PM asking about the car. Mine is a LS1 944, lots of 951 parts. The body kit I have is from Broadfoot, its the wide one that has their custom nose and they sold me a banana wing to go with it. Its just something I thought I can improve on. Until I drive the car at speed I guess I really wont know the balance with their nose and wing I have.
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Old 08-30-2013, 05:35 PM
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i own 9 944's at this time two have V8 motors in them one is a SBC with a 951 trans that over the winter months i will install the old rear from the ls7 car the gear box is a 996 C2 trans . i finely finished the paddle shifters on the LS7 car on wednesday there is a event at mosport i want to get to in two or three weeks . before that i have a test day at the glen on the 9th and 10th i think it is .

there are many aero mods that the 944 can benefit from but if you don't know just how the air is flowing over the car how then guessing at what will work is not the right way to go about fixing it .

Last edited by 962porsche; 09-10-2013 at 07:02 AM..
Old 08-30-2013, 06:29 PM
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Can you enlighten me then?
This is the body kit, plus a banana wing.


I do want to add vents to the side of the hood to let heat out, see many examples of the vents in the hood on 944. I also wanted to duct my rad air out the hood.

I was planning on a vent on the top of each front fender also.
Planning on some sort of venting on the rear quarter but that's after the front is done first.
No rear diffuser planned yet as I wanted to track it before adding that if I even feel its needed. I have the stock 951 to try if I feel I want it on.

I will probably also add a small front splitter to it after I track it some.

Taking off my flag mirrors. Either adding something to the cage that barely sticks out, or I have some cheapo tuner ones I can try to fit.

I have no idea what to do for a undertray.
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Old 09-09-2013, 09:57 PM
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i will have to ask because you seam so set on wanting to do all this aero work to your car .
do you know how to figure out how big to make a splitter ? do you know how to come up with all the equations of size , angles , shapes and so on ?
by asking about the rear diffuser it tells me you have to learn way to much before you just start in on doing things to the car .
i will tell you that a proper rear diffuser will hive you the most down forcw with the least amount of drag when it comes to aiding in rear down force .

i have spent countless hours (and i mean countless) with my aerodynamics program on the 944's body and chassis .
yes many people do vent air out the hoods of there cars is it the best place to do so not at all . it's more than just venting the air it's about controling the air and every bit of it .
you have to ask your self why do i need to vent the air out of the hood ? you say to keep the temps down . what are your under hood temps right now ? do you even know that ?
you want to add relief vents to the tops of the fenders and maybe the QTR's . do you know what the air pressures are right now in those areas ?
i'm not trying to slap your dick in the dirt and be little you at all but 1st you have to know just what the car is doing then you have to know just what to do to fix what it's doing .
by doing what others do and they don't know any thing them selfs your just getting no were fast .
you removed the spoiler on the rear glass to added a wing . the air flow over the rear of the car now is so screwed up by doing that all it does is add about 28 % more drag to the car .
i found that out on my aero program when i removed the oe rear spoiler . i did it on my sim just to see what it does the out come was real bad .

i'm run sesion is coming up in 15 minutes so i'm off to hit the track all i can say is if you don't want to pay a engineer to design the aero on your car learn about it 1st .
Old 09-10-2013, 06:14 AM
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Wow, your kind of harsh about this. First off this is just hobby stuff, if I had money to spend I might consider hiring a exert, but I would rather plod my way through it to hope I make it better. Seems like that approach really pisses you off but its how many racers do it.

Your also making some assumptions and I will correct them. I am leaving the factory rubber wing on, thats just a picture of the body kit I showed. I know how important it is and I plan to leave it. My car had a push, its my understanding that many 944 will also have a push. The addition of the rear wing will probably add to that. Since I have the factory diffuser and I am adding a wing, I feel that the last thing I need to focus on is a rear diffuser. I really just want to address the front fenders and hood before I wrap and paint ( and install the new body work ). I am 'guessing' that more aero work will be need on the front of the car as opposed to the rear at this stage.

My engine temps are a new issue. I added a splitter to the old body and extended it to the cross member. My 210 temps went to 230 with the splitter\undertray and I had to turn the fans back on and came down to 220. I only raced once with that setup. Now I have the new body so something to address and look at more. You know I have no way to measure or know pressure levels inside the wheel wells, however I have done some digging into the tools and methods to do some measurements.

There are many threads on 944 and examples of people who have added hood venting and are happy with the results, the approximate location is also fairly well known. We have 2 951 track cars locally that have widebodies and most of these mods.

Since I have new brakes, new suspension, new body I have my hands very full in redeveloping the car. I picked up a trackdash to help so I can make some measurements as opposed to seat of the pant feel. However, more seat time, on a new track and new parts will take me a lot of effort to work out. I have picked up some books on aero, been considering it a long time, I know enough to know that you dont just slap it on, so I have been looking at many 944 cars and other cars, talking to owners, looking at some special 944 cars like the orca, etc. I am learning, researching and asking questions.

So Im back to , lets get some basic improvements made to the aero ( including below the car ). Before I install the body. Im at a bit of a loss as to how best to make the fiberglass vents, or where to maybe buy something thats less time consuming.

So thanks for letting me know your a pro at this but your response is not helpfull.

I will now see if anyone else has any input.
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Last edited by aftermath; 09-10-2013 at 08:15 AM..
Old 09-10-2013, 07:53 AM
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like i said i'm not trying to slap your dick in the dirt just hoping to get you point across and yes i know i can be a to up front about doing so .

looking at what others have done and say works is meaning less how do they know it works ? by seeing 1st hand in a wind tunnel or sim ? no they are making guesses and from what i have seem 99.9% of what people do is wrong .

if your looking to get rid of the hight pressure areas in the wheel houses you do that by venting as you know this . but the best way to do so is to vent it out the back side of the wheel openings and not out the tops unless your still getting a high pressure area at the very top of the wheel house . this leads me to frnder liners are you using them now ? because i see many people remove them and then the area right behind the front wheels is like holding a 5 gal bucket open end into the wind . and yet the people that will tell you how good there aero mods work have just that problem because they removed there fender liners . the same can be side for the splash shield under the motor many people don't have any thing there and will tell you how good there aero mods work .

cutting a big hole in your hood to vent hot air may not be needed in the aero program i run many different hood vents not one was any good out of the 200 plus i tested non of them did any thing but ruin air flow over a area were your getting free down force on the nose . it's ez to get down force on the rear of a car the hard part is to get it on the front with out adding unneeded drag . again what are your under hood temps to make you want to add a hood vent ? also are you getting a high pressure area there if so what is the pressure your getting ? this goes back to are you using a splash shield under the motor as that will also drop the high pressure to a low pressure area giving the top side of the hood down force .
by cutting a hole in the hood your losing any and all down force from the hood . think of it like this hold a piece of card board out the window of your car as your driving down the road at the angle of your 944's hood . it's going to push it's self down right . now cut a hole the size of the vent your looking to do in the hood and do the same thing at the same speed when your driving . you will no dought lose down force . to top it off you may just end up dumping even more un wanted air into the engine bay and not be removing it as you want to . this has to do with size and shape of louvers and again it comes down to size shape and angle of the louves you will need to get it to work the right way .
when you look at the race cars real race cars the vent's they in stall are alot more than just venting holes . we spend hours designing them to work for the car they are going on . there is under side hood ducting that your not seeing in the photos of the race car . lets just talk about the hood vents for a radiator . the angle of the ducting before and after the Radiator is design to give down force and to act as a vacuum to pull air thru and out of the radiator . as air flows over the top of the hood it sucks the air out of the vent or radiator ducting . but then what about the extra air your now pulling from the radiator . it's hot air as you know hot air has a different density than the cool air that is flowing over the out side of the hood . there for it will not flow the same untill it cools and just what are you going to do with the extra air you forcing over the back side of the hood after it comes out of the hood vent ?

front spliters .
if you are using that nose in the photo ( have the same one on my SBC 948 race car) you will want to have a 4.2" lip infront of the bumper . but that too has more to do what the square inches needed to give down force it also has to do with it's design size and shape .
desing , size and shape have to do with how and what your looking to do with the splitter and why your adding to the car and what the car is doing handling wise . are you looking to get more down force on turn in at apex or track out ? what is your car doing ? then before you design a spliter you 1st have to have the cars mechanical grip at it's best . and that has to do with all your suspension set ups . i don't give any info on this on the 944 forums as what 99% of the people are doing there is wrong and it does not work . that too i have spend 1000 and 1000 of dollars on and the same amount in time testing to find out it's crap . with that too one person will do what the other person tells them is best . but when you own a v8 944 all stock but suspension and it turns faster laps that a 944s and 951 with only suspension work it tells you they have it totally wrong . but when you talk to themthey tell you how good there cars handle . so by adding aero grip with out having the mechanical grip at it's best 1st your fighting a up hill battle . if you don't even know what your tire and brake temps are after every run session and most people don't then your wasting your time with aero aids . now i'm not saying you don't after all you could have the best handling 951 out there and again i don't care if it is or not i'm just saying . because when you start adding aero mods to a car your setting will be totaly worth less but you still need a good starting point with your suspension 1st . as adding aero will no dought change all of them at speed and at different speeds . this is were a simulator comes in you test the car at different speeds to see just how the air is flowing at speeds because what may be working great at 100 mph could be giving to much drag at a lower speed .
and this again comes right back around to were are you looking to gain more aero and at what speeds ? then your talking about making the car more slippery thru the air but your looking to add a splitter and wing ? aero adds drag so there is the balance between the two .
you were talking about the under side of the car . now there are flat bottom cars and tunnel bottom cars . one is much better than the other when it comes ro aero and down force . but what will the rules of the class your going to race in let you do ?
Old 09-10-2013, 09:20 AM
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Thank you for that response. It reminds me that the liners wont fint the new fenders and other insightfull things. I will be in touch for some insight on my car.

Working with fiberglass is still something I need to improve on and whatever modifications I make to the hood and fenders still needs for me to learn. Finding some drop in pieces in something like a abs plastic would help.

I can guess as the body work aero, but I am very aware than under the car and with the diffuser I do not know what will work, the splitter is a bit more straightfoward.

Since I have a new suspension with double the spring rate that I used to have and a new braking system, tuning the cars mechanical grip as you suggested also requires lots of my time.

Al
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Old 09-10-2013, 10:19 AM
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I think the OP wants it to look more to his taste,
I say Go crazy with the aero mods if it looks good why not???

Who cares if it doesnt have a co drag efficency of minus 44 to the square power,
or he hasnt hooked up the correct flux capacitor?

If he loses a second a lap cos of a few mods just rip out the rear seat and it will make up for it, and that can be done without a degree in space travel !

If it feels good do it!
Old 10-09-2013, 05:38 PM
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if your doing or want to do it for the looky look then go for it !
but if you want it to work and give the most down force with the least amount of drag becuase you want it to really work then you may have to compensate a hell of a lot more than just removing a rear seat that scales in at 3.2 LBS .
there is a rule you should always go by when building a car you do it once and do it right the 1st time .
so the saying for sex (if it feels good do it ) does not really apply to building cars unless you only doing it for it's looks .
Old 10-09-2013, 06:37 PM
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Hi

This post is not about modding your car for looks, but more on how you can start having fun while learning something about airflow on your car.

While 962 does have a point, I believe you can actually in very simple ways gain an understanding of some of the aerodynamics in relation to driving at speed, and It just might be fun.

Take some wool tuffs and stick them to the car with tape. Then take it for a spin while (having a friend) recording what is happening.
If they are all smoothly aligned it means the airflow is still sticking nicely to the car, and this is not where it needs improvement.
The places you can expect to find more erratic behavior in the strings, are where the airflow decelerates and because of this separates from the vehicle. This would typically happen on the aft sections, and on the rear most parts of fender curvatures etc.
this would give you some visual insight.

If you want to learn more about basic principles, simply search e.g. Google for:
-Airflow
-Boundary layer
-Airflow separation
-Vortex generators
-Spoilers
-Stall, the reason I include this, is it will give you an understanding of what happens when the airflow separates from the vehicle. This is important since it dramatically increases total drag.
-angle of incidence
-angle of attack


Unlike 962, I don't think it is necessary to do any math on this, however, you could if you would. If you just read up on some of the effects of changing profile, and maybe copy NACA profiles or ducts ( for which I believe you can also find templates online) you will get a long way.

The most difficult thing is to predict the interaction between all these different elements when you start modifying.
That is why it is important to do an incremental approach and try out single steps at a time as you progress.

I hope it makes some sense.

Good luck!
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Last edited by jsveb; 10-09-2013 at 08:52 PM..
Old 10-09-2013, 08:50 PM
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you guys have good points about this .
you have to start some were and learn so playing with your own car is a good way to do just so .
the taping 3" strips of yarn to the car does give you a idea of what the air flow is doing over the car .
aerodynamics is not a black art any one can learn it the point i'm tring to put across is do not just start having at it ! learn about it 1st do your reading before you jump in and start cutting up your car in thinking it's going to do some good or what you want it to do .
i'm i don't agree with is when some one does some thing like cuts opening in there hood to get the heat out of the engine bay when they never did even see what temps are in the engine bay 1st to see if you even had to cut open the hood . if your motor is not over heating then doing things like that may do more harm than good . it will or could screw up the air flow over the hood for no reason adding a crap load of drag and still not really let the hot air out of the engine bay .
i was at the track this past week i was hitting the brakes at the #2 braking marker the guy with the same car same brakes , rotors and so on was having to get on his brakes at the 2 1/2 brake marker . so i'm turning faster laps then he is .
so why is he having to brake much earlier at every braking point on the track .
as after he was playing around with his cars brakes for the hole morning and it still was not stopping any better even after bleading the brakes twice . i walked over and asked what was going on and this was after he talked to me about what i was just for brakes pads and rotors that moring .
i told him it's simple did you ever take your brake temps ?
his reply was no never .
my reply your using rear brake ducts why ?
his reply i want to cool the rear brakes !
to make a long story short i told him to cover the intake ducts for the rear brakes with tape .
we went out on the last run sesion of the day and he how is braking at the same braking point i am .
the point to this is he spent all this time and money to cool the brakes when he 1st never know what the temps were of the rear brakes to know if he had to get them cooler .
brakes need to work in there temp range .
you see this all the time a person will spend time and money doing some thing they think is right and going to help when they did not 1st learn any thing about what they are looking to do only to spend time and money to find out what they did was totaly wrong and did more harm than good .
i see this same thing with people sticking big over sides wheels and tires on there cars and there lap times stay the same or worse turn slower lap times .
tires like brakes need to work in a temp range to big and they can not build the heat they need to grip .
so again learn about what your wanting to do 1st before you do any thing that is all i'm saying !
Old 10-10-2013, 05:08 AM
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Old 10-10-2013, 06:27 AM
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that's the same thing that happen to the GTP nissan at LRP bacl in the late 80's or early 90's
and the 2 benz at lemans
Old 10-10-2013, 07:13 AM
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Im familiar with the wool string method of identifying airflow and plan that (with cameras). The other method is some thick gear oil with dye to see the wind pattern.

Being a track only car and not street legal some of the things I would tinker with on the road are just not as feasible with the limited track time.

I got my Magnehelic Pressure Gage 5 NEG- 5 POSITIVE last week. I have been using a laser temp guage for years on different temps on the car and am planning to buy a probe style to get better tire temp readings.

I aslo picked a sleek set of mirrors. I will be replacing the flag mirrors with these or mounting a convex mirror inside car by a-pillar.

Unfortunately for me I just had wrist surgery from a fall and will loose about 6 weeks of time working on cars

I started also looking at wire rope linear position devices and if I can tie them into my datalogger. I do not know if they will measure suspension compression with 750/900lb springs to clearly show me any meaningfull values. Again wishing I could test that also on the street.
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Old 10-18-2013, 03:01 PM
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