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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 2,559
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Cellete... really needed?
My 930 need a bit of tweaking.
 PO said the drivers side wheel was backed into by someone in a parking lot... True or not, I don't know. I suspect he hit a curb... but thats just a guess. Either way, the drivers side wheel sits 1 cm back, and 1 cm to the passenger side. Left front body of the car is 1 cm higher than the right. You can see a bigger gap over the left wheel well than the right. Prior owner took it to some body shop somewhere, as is see holes in the body where the tried to pull it. Car tracks absolutely perfectly at all speeds. The camber on the left is maxed out though, whereas the right is centered. Tire wear is perfectly even. I have used it for 2 years with no issues. What I did last year is I built a jig out of heavy steel (Kind of my own Cellette ), using the proper pick up points based on the manual/body work specs.I did some minor pulling, and now all of the pick up points match what the manual says its supposed to be. Within 1-2 mm...The problem is, the hood is now "off" on one side and rubbing, and the left side still has a bigger gap to the wheel arch than the right... It looks like the bottom of the car, moved as it should. The top, including the strut top mounts, didn't. If that makes sense. I am willing to accept that I might have made it worse. But it was a fun winter project. I live in the midwest (Near kenosha/wisconsin). I am not aware of any place that has a Cellete near by. Does anyone know of a place??? Keep in mind the car is a roller, getting refinished. So I can't really tow it a hundred miles... Also, our local Honda dealer, who has a very good reputation for body work (fixed 2 of our prior cars), said that they can fix it. He showed me their computer pulling system, and lo and behold a 1988 turbo 911 is in their data base. He believes that 1 cm should be pretty straight forward, as most of the other cars in the shop were pretty mangled... The honda dealer mention $70 per hour, 2 hour set up time, 5 hours to pull. That sounds awefully reasonable. I don't mind paying more, as I want this done right. I assume that using a cellete woud be more, I just don't know how much more... So, what do you guys think? The honda dealer fixes $50,000 hondas all day long. They do BMW, Mercedes, etc. Is this something that is reasonable for them to fix??? Bo |
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04-08-2013, 08:51 AM
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Idaho
Posts: 2,357
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Hi Bo,
In my experience, body work is as much about the person doing it as the tools being used. I made a mistake almost a year ago during a hillclimb race in my '74 911 and munched the left front corner. The tub was tweaked and after a quick (and scarily unsuccessful) stop at a local body shop, I decided to have it fixed correctly on a Celette bench. It took me a long while and a lot of searching to locate a shop with one that was w/in a days drive. I stripped it to a mostly bare tub for them - motor/transmission, all suspension, body work etc... to save shop time (and me $$). All they were responsible for was to give me back a straight tub. I trailered it 5 hrs. each way to them.... When I went to pick it up, it still didn't look quite right to me when they rolled it out to load on my trailer. They had sent me photos of it on the bench and assured me it was straight. When I got it back home, I put it back together and found it still wouldn't align correctly - it was still bent in the left front... @#^%$#!! My take away? A Celette bench doesn't guarantee straightness - although you'd think it should as it's just a big expensive go-no-go gauge... that was my theory anyway. The person doing the work is the variable that can guarantee straightness. Find a shop that you trust and discuss your expectations, concerns etc... and hold them to it. In my case, the fact that I chose a shop that was 5 hrs. away made it very difficult on me to hold them to what we had discussed. It would mean stripping the car, trailering it back down them, going to pick it up and then reassembling it (all for a second time). The shop I chose told me they had lots of early 911 experience. I spoke to the tech. directly - he even owned a 911 that he'd fixed on the bench himself... After that, I decided to purchase a Celette bench and jigs for my own use. With the critical suspension points, a few mm's do make a difference when it comes to alignment and a great driving car. If I was closer, I'd offer to help! I don't know if that was helpful or not... Tom
__________________
'74 911 Red Sunroof Coupe, 3.6L, etc... '76 912 Yellow SPEC 911/911CUP |
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04-08-2013, 11:14 AM
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Location: wisconsin
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Sorry to hear about your car, Tom. I am worried about the same issue happening for me...
I don't mind paying to have the frame fixed. But I would expect it to come back pretty much perfect. Is that unreasonable? If I pay a grand or two, and it still comes back "off", I will be dissapointed. I plan to do the welding, panel replacement myself too. I just need the pick up points to be spot on... What has been other folks experiences with frame repair? |
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04-09-2013, 06:23 AM
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dkbautosports.com
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: branford ct
Posts: 3,640
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just because a car gets put on a celette bench it does not in any way mean the car will be pulled right .
that is up to the body person doing the pulling . then there is the fact that even if you have a car pulled on a celette bench that you will have to still do some of the fitting to the new parts going on the car . the big mistake may people make is they think the new parts will in fact just drop right on and fit . that is just not the case when it comes to porsche 911 bodied cars . just look at how many people go and change out a hood or a trunk lid and find it just fits like total crap . you have a hand built car there for you have to do the same thing when your repairing it . on the celette bench the jig for the front only locates were the bumper it's self bolts up . if the apron is not right you will have to fit the fender to find that out . then there is the other problem many people want to save money so they will tear the car down and drop it off at a shop to be pulled and again to save money they want to put the car back together after it's pulled . 35 years ago when i 1st opened my shop i used to just do the pulls for people and found out real quick it's not worth the headache to do so . some of the people would call us back up and say we did not pull the car right when it was again you can't really pull a car wrong if your doing it on a celette the jigs will line up or not . but again you have to rebuild a hand built car parts and panels will not just drop right back on the car . |
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04-11-2013, 06:28 AM
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Location: wisconsin
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Quote:
Is the issue more about having the best euipment, or simply having enough time and the desire to do it right? |
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04-11-2013, 06:41 AM
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dkbautosports.com
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: branford ct
Posts: 3,640
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yes you bring the car back to what it was if not better . remember they were hand built so like any car that is done that way you can do the same .
cars like porsches should be repaired and or rebuilt on a celette bench . if the car needs a heavy pull a drive on type bench is not the way to go . the people with the drive on benches will tell you it's ok and they can pull your car but no it's not true at all . when a car gets mounted on a celette bench the suspension get pulled out of the car and the car gets bolted to the bench that way were the suspension was bolted up to . that is the only real way to pull a car like a porsche . so if the car is bent the bolts from the jigs to the car will not line up and bolt the car down there for you have to pull the chassis to the bolts go in were they have to . the cars are built that way and that is how they should be repaired . some people don't have the know how to repair a car right some shops just don't care . there could be many reasons for why and how they don't care . one is money ! when you take your car to a shop that you do most of the work to the car they will not make any money on the job so why would a shop spend time when they will not make any money on the job . the other is many poeple will drop off a car and not have the parts to see how they will fit when the job is getting pulled at the shop . so when the car owner gets the car back things may not just drop right into place again the cars are hand built so you have to make the new parts fit . but again if the car get bolted to the bench and all the bolts to all the jigs fit than the car is in fact straight . that is not to say the fender gaps or hood gaps will also be spot on the car is still straight even if the gaps is off 5MM . so you could have say a gap on one side of the hood 5 MM bigger than the other side of the hood . it's up to you to line up the panels and make them right if your only having the shop pull the car . this is just one of the reasons why after my 1st year or so in business i stopped don't jobs were the car owner wanted to do the work on there car . to many headaches from customers just not understanding why and how a hand built car could be straight and yet the new parts don't just drop into place . |
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04-12-2013, 06:14 AM
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Location: Phoenix, AZ
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I would call Celette and see who has rented fixtures in your area and the nearest major cities. Half the battle is finding someone that still knows how to setup and use the bench, the other half is getting them to take your project. All the suspension needs to come off so you could save some money by stripping it yourself but I would second 962Porsche's recommendation that you have the shop with the bench hang the panels for you. Once it's on the bench they can pull it to perfection. This 72 suffered previous "repairs" and now sits perfect.
 
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04-14-2013, 07:53 PM
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Mine on the Cellete:
   
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Roland 930 Turbo '81 Too many modifications to list |
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04-14-2013, 10:55 PM
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dkbautosports.com
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: branford ct
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04-15-2013, 09:13 AM
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Location: wisconsin
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Well, going to the Honda dealer today...
Its convinient, close, and reasonably priced. I will let folks know how it goes, and what it costs... |
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04-18-2013, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
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04-21-2013, 06:26 AM
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Update...
The honda dealer was really nice. They let me spend the entire day there with the tech, "helping" with the repair. Turns out the tech was getting ready to retire, and told me about the cool cars he has owned. Including a countach he bought brand new in 1987 . He had it for 20 years! He has been doing collision work for 28 years.Anyhow... We spent 8 hours trying to fix the car. Not sure we did... If you get the suspension points measured spot on, the hood is way off, like, by an inch. If the hood is spot on, the passenger wheel is off, by 1/2 an inch. We tried pulling it every which way, and the car kept "triangulating." I do have a front end collision jig I made based on the pics in the 930 manual, an will mount the car to this next week, fix to the floor, then finesse the wheel arch... Since the car was only "off" such a small amount, I really thought this would be easier... Just got the final bill... For 8 hours on the bench, I was charged $360... Bo |
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04-24-2013, 11:43 AM
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dkbautosports.com
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: branford ct
Posts: 3,640
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i own a 88 countach .
any way he could not clamp the car with the tower and pull the car with the other tower as not to have it twist ? |
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04-24-2013, 04:59 PM
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Location: wisconsin
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Great news!!!
I was measuring the car and all of the key points... Everything was where it needed to be, except for one point. The drivers side front a-arm point was riding 5-10 mm high compared to the right... I couldn't figure out why... The back pick up points were perfect. The side were fine. The frame was square... ARGH... Last night I looked at it for the 10th time... I don't know how I missed it. The right front a-arm pick up point has 2 massive washers, the left doesn't!!! That accounts for the entire discrepancy, and explains why the shop couldn't make that perfect .Woohoo... Bo |
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04-30-2013, 06:35 AM
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dkbautosports.com
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: branford ct
Posts: 3,640
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if he was using a celette bench it would not matter if the suspension has washers or not it would and should sit right on the jig .
on the other hand i don't rember washer under the suspension pick up points . i will have to check the two 911's i have on the benches right now . |
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04-30-2013, 06:39 PM
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Join Date: May 2002
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 12,665
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FWIW:
My car tracks straight, is within 25 lbs on corner weights and handles predicabilty. If you look at the body, one side is 3/4" higher than the other but it was in wreck at some point. All my gaps are fairly uniform and everything opens and shuts as it should, even when the car is jacked up and I need to open a door to get something. Do I worry? No! After all I am not out to win concours, just drive and have fun. Get you car handling right and don't worry about the rest.
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Harry 1970 VW Sunroof Bus - "The Magic Bus" 1971 Jaguar XKE 2+2 V12 Coupe - {insert name here} 1973.5 911T Targa - "Smokey" 2020 MB E350 4Matic |
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04-30-2013, 07:26 PM
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Location: wisconsin
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Quote:
At some point will paint the car, and I would hate to have to fix this after painting it.... I bet that an aweful lot of 911's were in accidents at some point in their life time... And, it is odd how folks look at cars that have been in an accident. For most cars, they are now worth less. And I understand that... On the other hand, a friend of mine has a Ferrari Dino, he was in a huge accident 20 years ago. Front 1/2 of the car thrashed. He had it restored, car is worth pretty much what any other dino is worth... I suspect that cars reach a point in aging, where accicdents are not that unusual. I just wanted to fix it right, in case one day a 1988 930 is worth a lot of money  .Bo |
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05-02-2013, 08:19 AM
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