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HiWind's Avatar
 
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choosing paint advice ... please!

thanks for all the pointers in the forum folks
.. taking my 993 (741-swartz) in for a full glass-out respray soon.
Just received a big box (with jelly beans) with rubber trim, windscreen seals etc..
Hope to get it done in a month if we dont find any surprises; cost $10-15k

I have a choice between the water based and solvent based paints and between BASF or Chemspec products.

The plan is:
- strip
- sand to primer (except windscreen rust bubbles on left, rain gutter at rear right)
- remove all high spots (frunk lid) and dings (sun roof, rear fender) etc.
- 3-4 coats base and 3 coats clear to get to original thickness spec

Any input on this plan and the paint choice most appreciated - thanks!

Matt
White 3.8 964 - Black 993 C2 - White 05 Cup - SY GT3 MkI

Old 04-27-2015, 10:43 PM
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when it comes to water or solvent base colors it doesn't matter much .
your car was painted in solvent so if it was coming into my shop that's what we would put back on the car .
Old 04-28-2015, 07:02 AM
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cheers 962 .... code is 741* .... according to Adrian Strether that * meant water based - but still base and clear .. does that make sense to you?
Old 04-28-2015, 07:07 AM
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I will check to see the info I have on the color .
what year is the car ?
when Porsche was producing the 993's is in the time they were doing the change over to water borne base coatings .
Old 04-28-2015, 07:33 AM
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late 1993 for the 1994 production run and on the color code 741 is in fact water borne .
if your car is a very early 1993 it would be solvent .
Old 04-28-2015, 07:38 AM
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962 how do you feel about his coverage? - "3-4 coats base and 3 coats clear to get to original thickness spec" If you like that amount how much paint and clear is that. A gal of each enough or to much??
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Old 04-28-2015, 09:35 AM
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^ yes +1 on that q too - thanks
Old 04-28-2015, 10:37 AM
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the mil build of 3 to 4 coats base and 3 coats clear is about twice of what the OE mils would be .

even if you color sanded and buffed the finish removing one coat of the mil thickness your still over what the OE mil build would be .

the thing you have to remember is all cars now but the very high ones are painted by robotics .
the days of a guy going into the booth and pulling the trigger on a spray gun are over .
by using robotics now the amount of coating being applied to a car is just enough to get 10 tens of life out of a finish .

when a human paints a car he will no dough apply more product to the top flat surfaces of the car . this is because the finish will not want to run and he or she can lay more product down with out the worry of runs .

with the high solids colors of today base colors of a high quality product should cover in one coat with the 2nd coat just making sure you do have full coverage .

when base colors all you need to do is have coverage and nothing more .
with clear coats at most al you would want is 2 coats .
if your going to apply 3 you will want to sand off the 3rd coat . the down side to doing so is if your really looking for a OE finish you do not want the finish sanded and buffed you want to look of the slight peal .
orange peal is not really the right word it has more of a different look to it .
you can spray a finish and have it look smooth as glass but it has a look or texture to it out of the gun . A OE finish has that same look by color sanding and buffing your removing the look if the finish . this always will have the repainted look .

the people that tell you they sprayed 3 coats then sanded the hole car and applied 3 more do more harm then good to the cars finish .
you do that with lacquer because of the very low quality of a lacquer finish .
with todays coatings if you do that you have gone passed the 12 mil mix thickness you would want and it will lead to a finish that will not hold up . it will chip easy , over a short amount of time start to crack peal and delaminate .
with todays coatings less is always better .
Old 04-28-2015, 11:12 AM
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Look at that! I learned something from 962, again.
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Old 04-28-2015, 05:29 PM
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Nice Speed Yellow on your car, DaddyG!

962 - thanks for the detail - awesome. Again per Adrian's 964 book the spec for the paint thickness was .6-1mm - I think that includes the clear. When my shope said - 2-3 coats base and 2-3 clear with flatting and sanding inbetween, I figured that would get me to the .6-.7 thickness, no? And that would have a full, deep finish.

Also I understand the modern finish the robotics produce - that subtle orange peel - but our cars were not painted that way and I'd like to go for that classic, faultless, smooth and slightly thicker finish without it looking too thick or 're-sprayed'.
Old 04-29-2015, 08:44 AM
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yes Porsche's are painted by robotics .
on average Porsche have about 4.5 mils of product on the cars .
with clear making up about 1.5 to 2.0 mils
this we came up with taking 10 panels off Porsche's and sand thru each coat and checking the mils left on the panels .

the average dry mil build out of todays High solid clears that you would be spraying out of a gun is 2.0 to 2.5 mils per coat . by BASF's TDS .
in reality it depends on the person behind the gun and how they like to spray also what fluid tip and cap is being used on the gun .

the 993's are built by robotics as they are the mass produced car .
the 996 is a hand built car to a point and also painted by robotics .
this holds true even for the 999 colored cars .
the only cars that are not are the Carrera GT's and alike as they are hand built and hand painted .

when I was leaving Porsche AG's coating department as one of the dept. heads they were changing over at that time to robotics and water borne .
Old 04-29-2015, 11:47 AM
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I knew you would have a opinion on the thickness.Thanks for your expertise. What would you recommend when purchasing the paint/clear coat. I will have someone painting my car but I will be doing all the work prior to paint. How much paint(2 coats) and how much clear(2 coats) should I plan on buying. It's a 70T.
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Old 04-29-2015, 09:31 PM
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the average shops do is 2 to 3 coats of base and 2 to 3 coats of clear .

when it comes to talking about mils of paints and number of coats it really comes down to the color it's self other wise it's just in general terms .
with some colors you would need a ground coat .

just as clear are being talked about in general terms .
most of the time a shop will apply 2 coats of clear . some will opt for a 3rd coat if they are going to wet sand and buff the crap out of the car .
Old 04-30-2015, 05:14 AM
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progress is good and things are progressing well ...
the removal of the paint has shown that when there was filler (rear fenders) there was just a scratch or two, not big damage and the rust under windscreen was not sever. Car has been sprayed, flatted down and now the question is how many times should we spray/flat the car before the final polish
ie is 1 or 2 times enough?

So one full spray (3-4 coats) then flat down with 2000 grit and respray, then polish? or after the 2nd flat down do we respray again? Is there any real gain to be had?

thanks!
Old 06-20-2015, 02:01 PM
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here's a pic of the post flatted (dusty) car (polished up the hood today and its perfect .. but could it be better?)

Old 06-20-2015, 02:06 PM
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I'm missing what flat down is ? my guess is your talking about color sanding ???
you should never have to color sand then spray more product (clear )
this will do nothing but add mil build and later in the cars life the clear will start to crack and check . also it will not do any thing but make the paint look thick .
a good show top quality finish comes that way right out of the spray gun !
if you just sprayed more clear over a 2000 grit sand scratch the sand cut / scratch is to smooth for the clear bit into and in a year or two the 2nd clearing will start to flake off .
NO top level finishes are double cleared !
things like that were done back 30 years ago when people would use lacquers .
Old 06-20-2015, 03:49 PM
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thanks 962 .... that's what I was hoping to hear :thumbsup:
Old 06-21-2015, 01:43 AM
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I should explain I guess... and yes flatting is wetsanding post spray.

I was happy with the process I had planned but met a well known hot-rod (muscle cars etc..) show car guy on the weekend at a show and he said that 'in the old days' guys would spray/flat/clean/spray again a few times for the 'ultimate deep finish'. That concerned me a bit despite my Porsche Centre and the approved body shop saying they would only do the 3-4 coats then flat then polish approach (ie like what you suggested). Sticking with the original plan.

Thanks again for your insight and helpful explanations!
Old 06-22-2015, 12:13 AM
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with lacquer spraying then color sanding then spraying more was a way to get what is called depth to a finish . it doesn't work that way with new finishes .it only makes it look thick and heavy .
Old 06-22-2015, 05:06 AM
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