Celette Fixture set help - 962porsche?

[Tom '74 911]

Hello,

I am fortunate enough to own a Celette bench with the main set of Porsche fixtures 551.300. Yesterday, I was setting up a '69 912 on the bench and realized a few fixtures weren't lining up correctly. After a brief moment of panic, I did some research and found that I need a complimentary set for pre-1972 cars - 551.PA. (The cars I've had on the bench so far have been post-1972). 551.PA has 4 fixtures, 2 for the rear cross member & 2 for the front strut tops.

In my research, the Celette website also listed 2 additional complimentary sets - 551.308 & AN.8. I was hoping there was someone here who might be able to help me with descriptions of these sets. I have Celette's setup sheets for them, but am not certain what they might be used for. 551.308 looks to be a sill/rocker guide maybe? To help align the rockers? Not sure... And I have no idea where AN.8 is used.

Also, I was wondering if there are fixtures for the 912 engine mounts? I haven't found anything for those...

Thanks so much for the help.

Tom D.

[jjeffries]

Tom, maybe the AN8's are used for the Turbo only? (Different trailing arm mounts?) That's what I'd surmise from the top of the page that shows them. John

[Tom '74 911]

Originally Posted by jjeffries

Tom, maybe the AN8's are used for the Turbo only? (Different trailing arm mounts?) That's what I'd surmise from the top of the page that shows them. John

I think you are right about them being for Turbo chassis only. Still not exactly sure where they'd go... Hoping to talk w/the distributor this afternoon.

Tom

[bpu699]

Very cool, just subscribing...

Several years ago I made my own minicellete type fixture to align the front of the car...

Still need to make the back section, to hold the whole car...

Should be a fun project to finish...

I have seen the schematics that show the measurement point in the workshop manual. From the topside, it's pretty straightforward. The elevations, from the sides for the measurement points are less clear... Does anyone have a good diagram of those measurement?

Does a college also have fixtures that attach to the door jambs? I thought it attached to the front bumper mounts too...

[Tom '74 911]

Originally Posted by bpu699

Very cool, just subscribing...

Several years ago I made my own minicellete type fixture to align the front of the car...

Still need to make the back section, to hold the whole car...

Should be a fun project to finish...

I have seen the schematics that show the measurement point in the workshop manual. From the topside, it's pretty straightforward. The elevations, from the sides for the measurement points are less clear... Does anyone have a good diagram of those measurement?

Does a college also have fixtures that attach to the door jambs? I thought it attached to the front bumper mounts too...

I've seen photos of a few home-brew Celette type jigs & they can be pretty cool. Much respect to those that go that route.

The workshop manual has profile diagrams with vertical dimension. Definitely requires some careful measuring & extrapolation as I think it uses the torsion tube as the zero plane, not the ground etc... Kind of hard to read in the image below though (low res.).

I've heard of Celette fixtures that'd help align the door jambs, but never seen photos or seen them in the flesh... I think 962porsche mentioned them once a while ago. There are jigs that attach to the front bumper shock mounts. (see the jigs labeled #1 & #2 in the diagram below @ the very front of the bench). I think the bumpershock jigs are only for '74+ years, not sure if it'd line up with anything on a pre-bumper shock car. I can check if they do on the '69 though.

Post a photo of the jig you built!

Tom

[kycarguy 935]

Good thread. Following.

[jjeffries]

Tom, have you looked at Series 900 Damon is a well regarded 911 restorer in New Hampshire and his website shows cool photos of air- and water-cooled 911's on Cellette benches. Best, John.

[962porsche]

the 0 plane is called a datum line on some frame benches it's off the bench it's self but with celette it is not off the bench it's off the fixtures .

as we do not break down the 2 Porsche benches we have they are just setup and only used for the porsches one for the early chassis and one for the later chassis I will have to go to the shop to see just what fixtures are what . my other celette Porsche bench does get swapped out for other models of porsches as needed 356 , water cooled and so on .
the two 911 benches are old ones from the late 1970's and early 1980's . the only fixtures we remove are the ones for bumpers and door mounting points as you can not put the cars on the benches with them on .
as I closed the shop some years ago now and do race engineering work I will check things out when I get back from Daytona after our event there .

[bpu699]

Can you offer some broad input on what the charges range from when it comes to having you car straightened on a cellete?

Sent you a PM...

[Tom '74 911]

Originally Posted by jjeffries

Tom, have you looked at Series 900 Damon is a well regarded 911 restorer in New Hampshire and his website shows cool photos of air- and water-cooled 911's on Cellette benches. Best, John.

Thanks John. I have found Damon's website & have scoured the photos on it. It's funny, because I look almost as much at what is in the background (what tools are lying around, what clamps, how does he attach the pulling unit, what other little tricks of the trade can you pick up in the background etc...) as the bench itself.

To follow up, I have ordered the 2 complimentary sets 551.308 & 551.PA so I have the correct strut tower & rear shock crossmember jigs for earlier 911s. I'm hoping they ship from France in the near future, but we'll see. Nothing happens very fast it seems.

962porsche - I'd love to see the fixtures you have for the door mounting points. I've never seen them before at all - no set-up sheets, photos etc...

Thanks!

Tom

[Tom '74 911]

Just following up to put a lid on this thread. I was able to order complimentary sets 551.PA & 551.308 through the distributor. I received the fixtures yesterday and installed them on the bench this AM - and all is good.

551.PA includes 4 pieces. (2) for the rear shock tower/cross member and (2) for the front upper strut mounts. These are for pre-'71 chassis.

551.308 looks to be used to locate the seam where the floor meets the outer rocker. The set up sheet says it's for '70+ chassis. The tub on my bench in the photos is a '69 & is currently w/out outer rockers and a floor, so I can't verify for certain. It'll be interesting to see if these are useful - there's a lot of variables in the inner-outer rocker/floor/door shell area at play!

Now I have no excuses!

Here are some pics. I didn't take any of the (2) rear shock tower/cross member jigs (not sure why!) but you can see one in the upper left corner of the last pic. in the background:

[Ferrino]

Excellent! I noticed you're rebuilding portions of the front inner fenders. Are you going to get the additional Celette brackets which indicate the positions of the 2 bumper bracket holes on each side?

[Tom '74 911]

Originally Posted by Ferrino

Excellent! I noticed you're rebuilding portions of the front inner fenders. Are you going to get the additional Celette brackets which indicate the positions of the 2 bumper bracket holes on each side?

Hi Ferrino,

I don't think that Celette has fixtures to locate the front bumper bracket holes on pre-'74 (longhood) cars. At least none that I've seen.

There are fixtures for '74+ cars that locate the front bumper shock studs however. See the set-up sheet I attached in post #5 & look at the front of the bench for fixtures #1 & #2. There are black dots adjacent to them and a note in the upper left of the sheet with the black dot indicating that these are for '74+.

Even with a Celette bench at your disposal, there is still a significant amount of fitting, bending and shaping required w/repair panels. It's helpful to have all the pieces you need to complete the repair, including the hood, doors, bumpers, fenders etc... so you can mock everything up and make sure the fit & gaps are good as you go. Definitely "measure twice, cut once" & not the other way around!

The bench and fixtures create a good "zero plane" from which to measure points side-to-side to verify symmetry etc... I also have a Celette "Symetro", which is like a big gantry frame that bolts to the bench for checking symmetry in places that don't have jigs. Kind of a neat tool & an interesting add-on. I also have an adjustable arm-type device that mounts in the blue towers that can be used to check symmetry & dimensions... Lots of tape measures, rulers, straightedges, little homemade jigs etc... & dimensions from the factory workshop manuals too!

One interesting thing I have learned from using the bench is that even though it's heavy as heck and stout looking, it's important to level it before getting serious with measuring. The floor in my shop is pretty smooth, but not level - it slopes slightly towards the doors in the front. The first time I setup a car on it, after fiddling with it for a while, I spun the bench 180 degrees for some reason and suddenly the car was fitting in the jigs differently... Hmmmm! I'd made the assumption that the bench was stout enough to resist twisting etc... but I'm not sure it is. Now I take the time to level it before getting too serious.

At the end of the day, with rubber tires, moving suspension parts, rubber bushings etc... is it really that important to be micro-accurate? I don't know. There are many documented repairs on this forum that are done w/out a Celette bench that seem to turn out just fine. I guess it depends on your own personal definition of tolerance. I just try to do the best I can, given what I have to work with from a tool (high level) and skill (moderate level at best) standpoint.


Tom

[Ferrino]

Thanks Tom - I saw the bumper shock locating pieces in your earlier thread, but did not spot that they were for 74+ cars only. Surprised there isn't an equivalent for pre-74. Found a pic here:

[Tom '74 911]

That's an interesting photo! Looks like an early Celette bench. I'm not familiar with the green towers and fixtures - maybe an earlier version then mine?

If you look closely at the tub though, it's a '74+ tub. The fixture at the front locates the front bumper shock mount studs... So in that way, similar to my bench & fixture set.

Tom

[Ferrino]

Sorry, I should have said that the pic was only meant to show the 74+ front bumper shock pieces. I think the pic was from Europe.