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78 911SC stalls, backfires when hot

Hi all, first time poster, many months lurker. Last fall I purchased my brother-in-law's baby, a 78 911SC with 163,300 miles on the odometer. Makes me the 4th owner; he put 8K miles on it in 16 years. Cosmetically in great condition and I've done a bunch of work to get it up to snuff mechanically, learning what to look for and tackle, mostly from these forums; rebuilding front brake calipers, shift coupler, steering wheel bushing, etc; most of the issues are age-related (ain't that the truth). Anyway, there's one issue I can't quite resolve. After driving 20-30 minutes and getting the temperature up (needle about 2/3 from low temp box but still below red), the car will stall. Usually but not always at a stop. Restarts immediately, sometimes with a backfire. I've been all over these forums and everywhere else Google has taken me, and here's what I've done so far, to no avail:

-new fuel pump, fuel tank strainer, accumulator, fuel filter
-new fuel pump relay, checked relay socket fit
-replaced original Bosch CDI with CDI+
-new coil - MSD Blaster 8222
-new distributor, rotor, wires, plugs (WR8DC+)

A couple weeks ago I replaced the distributor ignition lead (green wire). Really thought this was it, as the connector disintegrated from age and heat when I bumped it while backdating the heat. However, today she died a couple times again (and backfired once) after driving for 20 minutes.

I've verified pop-off valve works and no apparent leaks. Idle speed drops when I remove the oil filler cap. Haven't been able to find any obvious vacuum leaks elsewhere. I haven't done anything to check or adjust the WUR or rest of CIS.

I've really fallen hard for this car; she runs incredibly well but when the temp gage creeps up I find myself holding my breath, waiting for the green OEL light to illuminate and looking for the closest driveway or parking lot to coast into. That's not what I want to be thinking about as I'm listening to the purr of that amazing boxer engine! Any thoughts or guidance would be much appreciated. Happy to upload pics or any other info that might be useful.
Old 07-10-2018, 10:26 AM
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A backfire is indicative of running lean,
Injector fuel flow?
Turn up enrichment might help
Bruce
Old 07-10-2018, 11:32 AM
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this is tough since it starts right back up.

I might start with the ignition sw.
once it dies don't touch the key. check for power at the CD or perhaps find fuses that are powered from the ign sw and check them for pwr.

check the FP rly socket. make sure the rly pins are tight.

check the fuses. spin them so they make good contact.
remove each wire to the fuse block and clean the ends along with the screw ends. (not a bad idea anyway).

try wiggling the connector to the CD with it running.



when it is hot, how does it run.
good idle
does the idle drop down and back up when you let off the gas.
does it surge
any backfiring at idle
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Old 07-10-2018, 11:42 AM
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The ignition key does occasionally give me problems; it sometimes won't turn and I need to jiggle it for several minutes sometimes to get it to turn. However, when the car dies I don't believe that I lose power in the rest of the car. Now you have me wondering though. Is it enough to make sure the radio still works or do I need to carry a multimeter and check voltage at the CDI? It almost always dies at idle, and the green OEL light comes on and the tach drops to zero. I turn the key off and then it usually starts right back up, which is good, considering I'm usually at a green light or stop sign and need to keep moving. However, if I don't pull over and let it cool down a bit, the problem will repeat itself pretty quickly, usually within the next 1/2 mile or so.

if it backfires, it will be on restart, which I assume is because the ignition has stopped sending a spark and raw fuel is still in the cylinders when I restart it. It seems to idle as it should and runs great when it's warmed up. Before I replaced the plugs, wires, etc., it seemed to stumble a bit when it started to heat up, but I haven't detected that since then.

It seems to my uneducated brain to be an electrical issue, since it restarts immediately. I would think if there was a mechanical component or oil that was causing this when it got too hot, that wouldn't resolve itself immediately, but clearly I don't know what I'm talking about or I would have figured this out already.

I also found a couple forum threads that seemed to indicate that an inoperative oil thermostat or other issue with the oil system could cause this. I'm not sure if that would manifest itself in the same way that i'm experiencing. The oil temp gauge has never really gotten all the way to red, but maybe the sending unit is bad?

On one hand, I've really enjoyed wrenching and have learned a lot about these cars over the past several months, but on the other hand I feel like I'm just throwing dollars at it, replacing components and hoping that fixes the problem. That's a frustrating feeling.
Old 07-10-2018, 01:55 PM
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the ALT light does not come on?

I would try to TS it when it stops. drive it till it starts to do it, perhaps in your neighborhood and get it good and hot. try to make it back home and let it idle there til it dies.
I prefer a test light. but yes, I would check for power at the CD.
you can also remove the connector on the back of the CIS so the FP runs when the key is on and I would verify the FP stays running when it dies.

you might look at the 14 pin connector on the rly panel. make sure the pins are clean and that the pins fit in the sockets snug.

you could check the wires on the ign sw. look for ones that are lose.
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86 930 42kmiles [__] RUNNING:[__] NOT RUNNING: ____77 911S widebody: SOLD
88 BMW 325is 200K+ SOLD
05 BMW 330CI 130K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
08 VOLVO V70 190K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
90 B2200[__] RUNNING:[] NOT RUNNING:__2000 MER E320 WAGON [] WRECKED:[]RUNNING:

Last edited by T77911S; 07-11-2018 at 04:18 AM..
Old 07-11-2018, 04:12 AM
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I don't believe it's related to the ignition switch or fuse blocks, as the car isn't losing electrical power when it stalls (radio does stay on) and I wouldn't expect that the issue would resolve itself and immediately allow me to restart.

I drove home yesterday and took the beltway, thinking if it was heat-related the increased speed would give me more cooling than the stop-and-go through the city. I was able to maintain 60 or so and no issues until I took the off-ramp. As soon as I let up on the gas pedal to coast around the ramp, the car died. Thankfully no one was behind me as I came to a stop and immediately restarted. I drove a couple miles further and felt it starting to hesitate/stall and found a side street that I was able to coast onto. I sat there for about 30 minutes to let it cool down and then drove the last 4 miles or so home with no further incident.

I'm starting to wonder if this is actually a case of the engine overheating and causing this. I have to verify that the external t-stat is working properly, but I do know that the oil lines under the passenger side door are pretty smashed. Since the oil temp gauge has never gotten higher than halfway between the 9 o'clock position and the red zone, I assumed that my engine temp was acceptable, even if a little higher than desired. I'm also assuming my sending unit and gauge are reading correctly, but I haven't verified oil temp with an IR thermometer yet so don't know that is the case. I was planning to fix the lines and rebuild the t-stat this coming winter, but now after reading a bunch of threads on the subject, I'm not so sure that I should wait.

Assuming the engine is running too hot, is there a component in the ignition or electrical system that is likely to shut off suddenly? It almost seems likes there's a circuit breaker that trips when the temperature reaches a certain level and then resets once it cools down enough. I'm pretty sure that's not the case but grasping for straws now!
Old 07-11-2018, 07:01 AM
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Is the backfire out the exhaust or back thru the intake? If out the exhaust it is a rich running condition, if back thru the intake it is a lean running condition.
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Old 07-11-2018, 01:37 PM
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Your engine is definitely running too hot, these cars should be near or below 9 o’clock for their health and longevity.

What kind of CD box do you have? Permatune has an overheating, dying and then once cool starts again failure type of thing that is maddening and difficult to troubleshoot as it “fixes” itself quickly on cool down.
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Old 07-11-2018, 02:31 PM
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Backfires out the exhaust I’m pretty sure but only when I immediately restart after it dies. I assume because unburnt fuel still in cylinder.

I replaced stock Bosch CDI with Classic Retrofit’s CDI+ when this first started happening. That didn’t fix the issue, although it seems to run longer before dying. Then replaced the coil, then distributor cover and coil, wires, and plugs. It now runs fantastic...for 20 minutes or so until temp goes to 10:00 on gauge.

Starting to think it’s prudent to just park her and go through the oil cooling system from stem to stern. Need to fix the kinked lines anyway but was hoping I could wait until I park her in the fall. Obviously I don’t want to make things worse in the meantime.
Old 07-11-2018, 03:40 PM
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let it get hot and then let it idle for a while. see if it surges.
when the mixture is too rich and when letting off the gas the RPM can drop down. it will either drop low enough to cut off or it can come back up to normal idle. I would think if it is rich enough to cut off then it should surge.

you might want to check fuel pressures.

you did not say if the alternator light comes on when it dies
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86 930 42kmiles [__] RUNNING:[__] NOT RUNNING: ____77 911S widebody: SOLD
88 BMW 325is 200K+ SOLD
05 BMW 330CI 130K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
08 VOLVO V70 190K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
90 B2200[__] RUNNING:[] NOT RUNNING:__2000 MER E320 WAGON [] WRECKED:[]RUNNING:

Last edited by T77911S; 07-12-2018 at 03:57 AM..
Old 07-12-2018, 03:53 AM
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I had similar problem related to fuel mixture - took to a mechanic and he fixed it in literally 5 minutes by adjusting mixture.
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Old 07-12-2018, 08:43 AM
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I had similiar experience in my 79 when i first got it after it sat for eight years. I did all the cis testing and adjusting and replaced all the fuel components/i jector aleeves/ seals etc. It started and ran well but developed an issue not long after where when up to temp and coming to a stop, or any clutch in no throttle it would stall. Occasionally it would hit stall and bounce up and normalize. If i had foot on throttle slightly when coming to a stop i could keep it from stalling. I found the decel valve needed some adjustment and that fixed my issue. I get the general idea of how the decel valve works but some other expert could explain better. Instead of hanging rpms up and gradually dropping to idle as designed, it was allowing it to drastically drop and going below idle and causing the stall. I. Elieve you can cap the vacuum line to bypass this valve and see if this might be your cause? Just my experience of something similiar.
Old 07-12-2018, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T77911S View Post
let it get hot and then let it idle for a while. see if it surges.
when the mixture is too rich and when letting off the gas the RPM can drop down. it will either drop low enough to cut off or it can come back up to normal idle. I would think if it is rich enough to cut off then it should surge.

you might want to check fuel pressures.

you did not say if the alternator light comes on when it dies
I don't recall ever seeing the alternator light come on. The green OEL light does come on and stay on, which is when I know the engine has stalled. Unless in the stress of the moment I'm confusing the 2! I haven't taken the car out long enough since then to get it hot enough that this happens again. TBH I'm concerned with getting stranded as well as damaging something. Previously after a restart after stalling, I have not noticed any surging. The idle definitely does seem to drop below idle speed when it dies. It only dies when I let off the accelerator, such as coming to a stop or coasting down on the off-ramp. I've got a brand new fuel pump but I haven't checked fuel pressures yet.
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Old 07-15-2018, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ngrich99 View Post
I had similiar experience in my 79 when i first got it after it sat for eight years. I did all the cis testing and adjusting and replaced all the fuel components/i jector aleeves/ seals etc. It started and ran well but developed an issue not long after where when up to temp and coming to a stop, or any clutch in no throttle it would stall. Occasionally it would hit stall and bounce up and normalize. If i had foot on throttle slightly when coming to a stop i could keep it from stalling. I found the decel valve needed some adjustment and that fixed my issue. I get the general idea of how the decel valve works but some other expert could explain better. Instead of hanging rpms up and gradually dropping to idle as designed, it was allowing it to drastically drop and going below idle and causing the stall. I. Elieve you can cap the vacuum line to bypass this valve and see if this might be your cause? Just my experience of something similiar.
My car has been driven very little over the past decade so this is very interesting. What is adjustable on the decel valve? I can't find anything other than the 3 fittings for vacuum lines. If I cap it, do I just cap the bottom of the T and the top of the valve? Edit: picture rotated 90 degrees CCW
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Old 07-15-2018, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwest View Post
Your engine is definitely running too hot, these cars should be near or below 9 o’clock for their health and longevity.

What kind of CD box do you have? Permatune has an overheating, dying and then once cool starts again failure type of thing that is maddening and difficult to troubleshoot as it “fixes” itself quickly on cool down.
I took the car out for a quick run up to the store this morning (via windy back roads of course) and got her up to temperature, although not long enough to recreate the stalling issue. When I got home, I checked the oil cooler lines and trombone and they were hot to the touch. IR thermometer read about 160F so apparently the thermostat is working. The pic shows the crimps in both lines right next to the jack point. I assume there is enough oil flow to heat up the lines but perhaps not enough to keep the oil temp below 9 o'clock on the gauge. I'm going to start bringing the IR thermometer with me while driving to see if I can get some additional readings. Is there a spot I can temperature check that will tell me if the trombone cooler isn't doing enough? For example, should oil temp at spot A be no more than 40F hotter than the trombone cooler, or similar? Or am I flirting with disaster by continuing to drive the car, and what I really should do is take care of the crushed oil lines ASAP?

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Old 07-15-2018, 12:00 PM
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Yes on the vac line on the top to plug. Also that top nipple has a nut on it . You loosen that nut and the nipple is adjustable. Then lock down the nut.
Reply#4 in this posting---
How to adjust the deceleration valve?

Last edited by Ngrich99; 07-15-2018 at 05:07 PM.. Reason: Spelling. Geez
Old 07-15-2018, 04:55 PM
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i would not mess with the DV. you NEED a hand vacuum pump to test it and set it up.
the purpose of the DV is to hold the RPM's up when you let off the gas.
if you really feel the need to go down this road just bypass it.
remove the 2 larger hoses that goto the TB and plug the nipples on the TB.
it "could" be possible for the DV to be on the edge of open and close and it is abnormally stuck open and the idle have been adjusted to compensate. on the rare occasion it closes and shuts off the motor. this would NOT be heat related.
again, a hand vacuum pump is needed to test the DV to see what it is doing.


if the ALT light is not coming on then that means its electrical. go pull the plug off the CD while it is running, when it stops, the ALT light will be on.
turn the key off and the ALT light goes out.

if the RPM's are dropping down too low and then stalling its too rich. a cold engine can tolerate being rich, as it warms up the rich condition shows itself more.
you could check power to the WUR.
I would also check control pressures.
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86 930 42kmiles [__] RUNNING:[__] NOT RUNNING: ____77 911S widebody: SOLD
88 BMW 325is 200K+ SOLD
05 BMW 330CI 130K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
08 VOLVO V70 190K:: [__] RUNNING: [__] NOT RUNNING:
90 B2200[__] RUNNING:[] NOT RUNNING:__2000 MER E320 WAGON [] WRECKED:[]RUNNING:
Old 07-16-2018, 04:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hardebeck View Post
I took the car out for a quick run up to the store this morning (via windy back roads of course) and got her up to temperature, although not long enough to recreate the stalling issue. When I got home, I checked the oil cooler lines and trombone and they were hot to the touch. IR thermometer read about 160F so apparently the thermostat is working. The pic shows the crimps in both lines right next to the jack point. I assume there is enough oil flow to heat up the lines but perhaps not enough to keep the oil temp below 9 o'clock on the gauge. I'm going to start bringing the IR thermometer with me while driving to see if I can get some additional readings. Is there a spot I can temperature check that will tell me if the trombone cooler isn't doing enough? For example, should oil temp at spot A be no more than 40F hotter than the trombone cooler, or similar? Or am I flirting with disaster by continuing to drive the car, and what I really should do is take care of the crushed oil lines ASAP?

You do realize that 9 o'clock is the norm for your car? Without any mods, it is exactly what you should see when the car is warmed up. If ( o'clock is typical and both lines are getting hot after the thermostat at 160F...they are likely not crimped much (acceptable).

Since the trombone simply acts as a turn for the lines (with a bit of extra exposure to air)...not really (after the thermostat)...although the farther from the engine on one line and the closer to the tank on the other should be the biggest difference (but fairly small since the lines are right next to each other).
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Old 07-16-2018, 06:31 AM
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If your temps are not over 220 in the summer...you probably will not see much improvement...even with a carrera cooler and fan. Those temps are pretty much the norm..especialy if you are driving in traffic. Yours runs as cool as mine..maybe cooler. I have the full factory late carrera setup (right down to the wiring harness), fan, elephant widemouth cooler, plus the scoop that replaces the side marker.

If you drive in a lot of stop-and-go traffic. The best thing for that type driving is a setup with a fan. Without airflow, the only significant advantage to an external coler is the additional oil it holds.

In cool weather...mine runs about 180 exactly. In hot weather 210 exactly. When I am in stop and go in very hot weather..220-230. Mine is a clean, reasonably fresh motor with backdated exhaust, and new engine thermostat, external cooler thermostat as well as new Carrera cooler with the elephant widemouth conversion, the carrera fan with the 210 degree themoswitch and the duct. The only way I can think of getting it to run cooler would be to more cooler surface area...ie, front mount. It has always read/run at these temps unless there was a gauge, sender or thermostat malfunction. Obviously keeping your cool is good for engine longevity, but these engines are designed to run a bit hotter than US iron. My owners manual (for the 2.7 engine) says that if the oil temp exceeds 285F you have a problem.
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Old 07-16-2018, 06:42 AM
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Hi all, just a quick update. I decided I wasn't going to mess with the mixture or the decel valve myself just yet lest I make things worse, but I got a clue from my brother-in-law last week while on vacation (the previous owner). He said this happened to him years ago while in the mountains around Lake Tahoe and he called the guy he bought the car from, who told him to put the belt on the air injection pump and that would solve the problem; which it did. Since then, the pump and most of the associated plumbing has been removed, but several respondents in this thread have suggested that the issue is a rich mixture, so it seems logical that running the injection pump would lean it out.

I've got an appointment in a couple weeks at the local independent Porsche garage to check the fuel mixture and will report back. Until then I'll stick to short drives on the back roads around my house. Fingers crossed and thanks for the great advice thus far!
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