Pelican Parts
Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   Pelican Parts Forums > Porsche Forums > Porsche 911 Technical Forum


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 3 votes, 3.67 average.
Author
Thread Post New Thread    Reply
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Jacksonville, Fl
Posts: 735
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quicksilver View Post
Uhhh, Steve W has probably put more cars on a dyno than anyone here.
When someone has done that much of something I generally try to get them to share their observations.

-----------------------------------
A number of years ago Steve Wong mentioned that he had been playing with a GT3 muffler on an 80's Carrera and shared some pretty impressive results. As a side note he mentioned he had gotten similar results using an old school turbo muffler.

I have a turbo muffler and at some point I want to weld up a Bursch style setup for my B&B headers.
+1 What he said. Sir SW is one of the “authority’s” on this. Just read through his web site of Dyno results and you can see his acumen. Like most smart people, he realizes what he doesn’t know. Between he and Mr Bill V.......we are lucky.
__________________
Chris -
1975 911s "Outlaw Rat-Rod" - steel wide body, 3.6 conversion
1989 911 Carrera 25th Anniversary Ed (5th from the last car to ever leave the original Porsche factory assembly line) - SW Chip, Fabspeed Headers & Exhaust, RetroAir A/C
2001 996 Turbo - ~42k miles

Last edited by Duc Hunter; 01-03-2019 at 06:20 PM..
Old 12-26-2018, 09:32 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #41 (permalink)
what? me worry?
 
TimT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Wantagh, NY
Posts: 7,087
Quote:
When someone has done that much of something I generally try to get them to share their observations.
Agree

Having a dyno in the shop for the last 15 years or so has given me an education.. I see how back to back runs often differ..how sometimes powerful cars slip on the rollers... and that run must be discarded....We did dyno runs for a spec miata racer... he brought 3 iterations of exhaust to test... apparently our dyno couldn't dither, and showed only minor gains with one exhaust.. That guy got a half day of testing gratis.. because we were not confident in the numbers,,,

Other than the results I shared from a shop published 20 years ago, no one has provided any back to back testing of exhaust mufflers on the same engine configuration..

It's all hearsay and anecdotal..Someone posted a dyno graph.. great, that's on that specific engine at that period in time..

So unless someone can provide the info the OP asked for...his question is unanswered..

I'd love to see the mufflers on the chart I presented re-tested ...and even better on an engine dyno.... get rid of all that wheel slip errata

So far all we have on this thread is "its bogus"
__________________
who are those guys? <<< ( Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid)
Rent a GT3RS from us!! Call or e-mail.
Transportation and Track support
Rudtners Racing

'69 911 GT-5
'75 914 GT-3
Authorised Haltech seller and installer
Authorised Unichip installer
BBS wheels
Fikse wheels
Redline motors oils
Swepco
1500 hp chassis dyno
Old 12-27-2018, 04:07 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #42 (permalink)
what? me worry?
 
TimT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Wantagh, NY
Posts: 7,087
So who will step up and post some numbers...?
__________________
who are those guys? <<< ( Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid)
Rent a GT3RS from us!! Call or e-mail.
Transportation and Track support
Rudtners Racing

'69 911 GT-5
'75 914 GT-3
Authorised Haltech seller and installer
Authorised Unichip installer
BBS wheels
Fikse wheels
Redline motors oils
Swepco
1500 hp chassis dyno
Old 12-27-2018, 04:08 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #43 (permalink)
Bland
 
RWebb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Greater Metropolitan Nimrod, Orygun
Posts: 44,196
Garage


a valiant effort, coordinated from just East of Central Park
Old 12-27-2018, 04:22 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #44 (permalink)
Under the radar
 
Trackrash's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Sebastopol, the land of wine and redwoods in The Republic of California.
Posts: 5,899
Garage
Nice ^. The thing I hate about my Dansk sport, is the fact that it weights 24 lbs. I would love to cut most of that weight off the back of my car.

I wonder if the OP is paying any attention to all this.
__________________
Gordon
___________________________________
'71 911 Coupe 3,0L outlawed
#56 PCA Redwood Region, GGR, NASA, Speed SF
Trackrash's Garage :: My Garage

Last edited by Trackrash; 12-27-2018 at 05:04 PM..
Old 12-27-2018, 04:56 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #45 (permalink)
Reiver
 
Reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 29,975
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackrash View Post
Nice ^. The thing I hate about my Dansk sport, is the fact that it weights 24 lbs. I would love to cut most of that weight off the back of my car.

I wonder if the OP is paying any attention to all this.
Agree on the weight....especially where it hangs. Oh, and titanium is a bit expensive....unrealistic for most.
__________________
De Oppresso Liber
Old 12-27-2018, 05:36 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #46 (permalink)
Bland
 
RWebb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Greater Metropolitan Nimrod, Orygun
Posts: 44,196
Garage
They had to retrench - it's on the Rennlist America GS thread. IIRC, he finally went with monel.

BTW, my dual cowhorn Monty is ~~ 16 lbs. IIRC.

Ti is the future - we just need to melt down more Russian submarines.
Old 12-27-2018, 06:45 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #47 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Posts: 59
If you do some digging there are multiple threads on SSI from years ago with people planning on posting dyno results. none were ever posted.
Old 12-27-2018, 06:56 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #48 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: PNW
Posts: 517
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackrash View Post
Nice ^. The thing I hate about my Dansk sport, is the fact that it weights 24 lbs. I would love to cut most of that weight off the back of my car.

I wonder if the OP is paying any attention to all this.
I had a stainless Dansk 2-2 that I was planning to install when I bought a set of used SSIs that came with a M&K 2-1, I intended on selling off the M&K until I had both in hand. The M&K looked to be of much higher quality and was only a little over 15lbs, I sold off the Dnask instead.
__________________
_______________________________
1982 911 SC 230,000mi and counting
Old 12-27-2018, 07:57 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #49 (permalink)
Registered User
 
clutch-monkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 879
My full fabspeed system netted 13hp on my car. 20hp with the Steve Wong chip.
Full system though not just exhaust (not sure how bad the standard 964 exhaust is)
Old 12-27-2018, 09:20 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #50 (permalink)
Registered User
 
175K911's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Wheaton, IL (Chicago 'burbs)
Posts: 3,024
Dyno are all different too. Local shop has a very well maintained Dyno Dynamics 4 wheel dyno, they do a lot of modified Audi quattros. But they also have a lot of GT3 Cup customers. This brand of dyno is often referred to as the heartbreak dyno because the numbers from it are after several % lower than some other dynos. But it’s very consistent. When they ran my car back in 2010 when it was still in PCA E-stock form and had 192,000 miles on the engine it put out an average of 201.6 rwhp, averaged from 3 runs as I recall from 201 to 202.5.

NASA racing dictates only Dynojet dynos, set to SAE correction and using a smoothing factor of 5. That’s pretty specific to get what is believed to be repeatable results for all competitor cars. Here locally that rules out most of the available dyno shops. The shop I use normally dynos 2,000 hp drag cars, mostly Mustangs some of which have ended up on Street Outlaws. But the shop owner is diligent in the maintenance of his equipment, the reason I haven’t been able to get my car on his dyno so I can get results out to Steve Wong is that he’s had it out of service for a couple of weeks to have annual service and repairs done to it.

So different dynos, different shops, different days different operators all mean different results.
__________________
Ed
'86 911 Coupe (endless 3.6 transplant finally done!)
'14 Jeep Grand Cherokee 3.0 Turbodiesel (yes they make one)
'97 BMW 528i (the sensible car, bought new)
'12 Vintage/Millenium 23' v-nose enclosed trailer
Old 12-28-2018, 03:06 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #51 (permalink)
Diss Member
 
Quicksilver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: SC - (Aiken in the 'other' SC)
Posts: 4,707
It is going to be close to impossible to really come up with any kind of a definitive list because there are always too many variables. You can change a muffler and get "X" horsepower but the real gain comes from adjusting the fuel and timing to maximize it. And then you get endless questions if the exhaust was the cause or the tuning. (And on top of that the well known limits of repeatability on even the best dyno.)

The best you can probably hope for is to do back to back comparisons from a single baseline exhaust system so you can tell what that single change did for you on the same day with the same equipment at the same time. (And even this will be flawed by the question of how optimized the baseline tune was.)
And then to make this relevant you will need another dyno run after you re-optimize the tune for the new exhaust.

It is a vicious can of worms which shows why so much money can be dumped into research.
------------------------------------------------------------------
That all said I prefer to have as much data to rummage through as possible. I think the best we should hope for is for some simple "back to back" dyno curves and just keep it very clearly in our minds that the data can be deceptive and be well stocked with grains of salt.
__________________
- "Speed kills! How fast do you want to go?" - anon.
- "If More is better then Too Much is just right!!!" - Mad Mac Durgeloh

--
Wayne - 87 Carrera coupe -> The pooch.
Old 12-28-2018, 04:46 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #52 (permalink)
Registered User
 
jamesjedi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: The Brink
Posts: 2,798
Not sure on the etiquette of posting someone else’s information, hope they do not mind. Link - The ultimate exhaust resource for the 3.2 (under construction)

Originally from Steve Wong of 911 Chips.
Originally Posted by Steve W
I've compiled a spreadsheet of expected power output values based on a internally stock 3.2 Carrera motor based on dyno tuning data that I've accumulated from many cars over the years. The output values are given in engine flywheel hp assuming a Superflow engine dyno such as at Jerry Woods. You results may vary, based on the flow quality of your muffler, but for a healthy 3.2 motor, I estimate these values to be accurate to within 2-3 hp of each other.

Editors Note: Your car may vary. The above (stock power) figures appear to be for 1987-1989 US 3.2's. 84-86 vs 87-89 cars get the same end hp gains from chip/exhaust upgrades, even though the earlier cars start with less hp. Remember, the early cars had less hp due to chip programming only, so there is more to gain from an aftermarket performance chip.

ROW cars: less restrictive cat, 10.8:1 compression pistons, presumed different stock chip.
- 1984-89: 231hp. Their cat was less restrictive and is a popular upgrade for US cars.

US cars: 9.5:1 compression pistons. Stricter emissions also resulted in more conservative chip programming, and a more restrictive cat for US cars. The result = less power.
- 1984-86 California: 200hp. There is an extra "emissions brain" box under the drivers seat. Disconnect the brown wire for free 7hp.
- 1984-86 US: 207hp.
- 1987-89 California: ???
- 1987-89 US: 217hp. The 10hp gained was from revised chip programming. More power, same emissions.

Which exhaust setup?

For information on "Cat bypass/sport muffler" or SSI/sport muffler or "Headers/sport muffler" options, go here.

Old 12-28-2018, 06:37 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #53 (permalink)
Crotchety Old Bastard
 
RarlyL8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 13,934
Garage
Quote:
The best you can probably hope for is to do back to back comparisons from a single baseline exhaust system so you can tell what that single change did for you on the same day with the same equipment at the same time. (And even this will be flawed by the question of how optimized the baseline tune was.)
And then to make this relevant you will need another dyno run after you re-optimize the tune for the new exhaust.
It is a vicious can of worms which shows why so much money can be dumped into research.
Actually, this is the bare minimum. It is easy to hide or skew results with sloppy research methods.

The only way to do proper exhaust research is with an engine dyno. Most don't realize how extremely expensive and time consuming it is to do correctly. With a normally aspirated engine the difference in performance of one component, such as a muffler, is measured in single digit horsepower. To accurately measure these levels every aspect of the test parameters must be controlled. This includes things such as the engine oil temperature and air/fuel ratios. The baseline must be repeatable to 1HP. When the change is made (different muffler for example) the tune must be changed to get the exact same A/F curve as baseline. Multiple runs are made with each change and baseline runs are made after to verify calibration.
Dyno sessions such as this cost $1000+ EACH.

We do our preliminary research using an engine dyno then final tweaking and application testing using a chassis/wheel dyno.
Currently we are dyno testing a muffler for use with big bore 356 engines, where ever 1HP is significant. Extremely tedious and expensive work goes into this type of development.

Another aspect often overlooked is weight.
For racecars and hard core enthusiasts every pound counts. We use 321 stainless which has Ti as a component and is lighter and stronger than 304. Our mufflers weigh as little as 10 pounds for the single inlet. The heaviest comes in under 20 pounds for the quiet version of the Rally three tailpipe dual inlet muffler.

Here is a prototype set of our tuned headers that was used during the development of that product. An O2 bung was placed equidistant from the port on each primary to satisfy the AFR control parameters. Just one of many controls.

__________________
RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 12-28-2018, 06:43 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #54 (permalink)
Registered User
 
David 23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: San Pedro
Posts: 415
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackrash View Post
Nice ^. The thing I hate about my Dansk sport, is the fact that it weights 24 lbs. I would love to cut most of that weight off the back of my car.

I wonder if the OP is paying any attention to all this.
Yes, I am paying attention to all of this.

I chose an M&K 2 in 2 out muffler connected directly to headers for my hot rod 3.2 short stroke. My choice was based on not only their reputation for quality work, but the weight reduction and craftsmanship the M&K provides. However I was never able to find any real data comparing the performance of this unit to others. Clearly I would have to do my own testing on my particular engine for an accurate comparison, but my original post was to simply find out if there was any consistent data available out there that would in general, assist people with their choices.
__________________
1979 911SC Custom Backdate Hot Rod
1972 911T, 2.7.
1974 914/ 2.2-6
2004 996 40th Anniversary Edition
Previously owned several 911 models since 1975.
Old 12-28-2018, 07:43 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #55 (permalink)
Registered User
 
MARISOL78sc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: PHILADELPHIA
Posts: 523



Fabspeed 267-742-3008
__________________
Paul
2011 Cayman S | 1978 911 SC | 2007 Lexus IS 350
1995 993-Sold |1998 C2S-Sold | 2002 M3-Sold
Old 12-28-2018, 09:26 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #56 (permalink)
Crotchety Old Bastard
 
RarlyL8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 13,934
Garage
We made a generational change in our dual inlet mufflers about a year ago in response to a race shop wanting to use them. They did the engine dyno testing using one of their 3.4L race engines. The final version of the muffler was within 6HP of the straight pipe race exhaust that was used as a baseline. This is about as good as can reasonably be expected without significantly impacting the pricing of the finished product or raising the dB rate past the defined limit. Data becomes proprietary property of the race shop so not published.
Our goal is to build the best quality lightest muffler available with many tailpipe and sound level configurations. Each change may have a slight impact on performance which is why we have conversations with clients to choose the best configuration for their needs.
__________________
RarlyL8 Motorsports / M&K Exhaust - 911/930 Exhaust Systems, Turbos, TiAL, CIS Mods/Rebuilds
'78 911SC Widebody, 930 engine, 915 Tranny, K27, SC Cams, RL8 Headers & GT3 Muffler. 350whp @ 0.75bar
Brian B. (256)536-9977 Service@MKExhaust Brian@RarlyL8
Old 12-28-2018, 09:49 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #57 (permalink)
Registered User
 
MARISOL78sc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: PHILADELPHIA
Posts: 523
Quote:
Originally Posted by MARISOL78sc View Post



Fabspeed 267-742-3008
This is a new Dyno run 2 weeks ago a stock 3.2, We have a DynoJet in house and run all of our products. Give me a call 267-742-3008
__________________
Paul
2011 Cayman S | 1978 911 SC | 2007 Lexus IS 350
1995 993-Sold |1998 C2S-Sold | 2002 M3-Sold
Old 12-28-2018, 10:51 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #58 (permalink)
 
Sponsor
 
Fabspeed Motorsport's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: 155 Commerce Drive | Fort Washington, PA 19034
Posts: 191
Happy New Year to All. I wanted to share a video of the 3.2 we took these Dyno results from. Call me if you have any questions.

https://youtu.be/zMX32WOUyxU
__________________
Paul Aguirre | Exotic Car Performance Specialist
Fabspeed Motorsport
paul@fabspeed.com
www.fabspeed.com
P: (888) 646-4945 x108 |
Old 01-03-2019, 11:02 AM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #59 (permalink)
Reiver
 
Reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 29,975
Nice HP upgrade but it was chipped too....what is attributed to the chip and what to the headers etc.? Should have dyno'd it without the chip first.
Where did it make the HP/T?
__________________
De Oppresso Liber
Old 01-03-2019, 01:53 PM
  Pelican Parts Catalog | Tech Articles | Promos & Specials    Reply With Quote #60 (permalink)
Reply

Thread Tools
Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

 


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 02:48 PM.


 
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2018 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page
 

DTO Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.