what did i get myself into!
 

I decided that while the 77 sleeps for the winter to redo injectors and sleeves...well after reading evry manual and many postings this didnt seem too bad a job...

WRONG!


I got all injectors out but

some sleeves will not come out and the ones that did have cracks and broken bottom edges....so brittle you could snap part off with fingers!

I also created a pull tool as per one of the postings an i fear a little piece broke off and is in there somewhere (try fishing with magnet..nothing came out)

I stopped after 4 sleeves leaving driver side ones in situ

At this point.....


do I have to drop the engine to remove intakes to clean up what might be in there? It is due for a top end redo and I guess while its out i can get valve sleeves etc done with full inspection by dropping the motor and transmission off at my trusted Porsche shop as per their recommendations last year for a multitude of reasons

Can i get away with putting some scope into the injector holes to see what may be in there...doesn't sound like the best way to go (miss something and there goes the engine?) but thought i d ask


Lastly, if dropping then i guess i don't need to know how to get the last 2 damn sleeves out since access will be easier to push them out cleanly. BUT because i need to know why the posting and technical articles etc made it should so easy but wasn't...what could be done in situ to get them out...I ve heard of tools etc but havnt seen any pictures of any other then homemade ones. Secondly...what tabs are they talking about on the top of the injector port that may or may not be holding sleeves in place..pictures please.

Sigh.....

New sleeves and 0 rings ordered, injectors off to a shop in Houston to get cleaned and "balanced".

I appreciate the help and accept the critiques that may be included..i guess I got in over my head.

Bob

How about a shop vac with a thin plastic tube ducktaped to the end of the vac hose to try and suck whatever if anything, out? Hey, just a thought.

I thought of that too, still have 2 sleeves to get out and cant. will try to vacuum and see what comes out but a scope inspection is probably needed too

CIS intake sleeves removal........
 

Bob,

If I follow your post correctly, you had the passenger side sleeves removed and only (1) of the the driver side (cylinders 1-2-3) sleeve too. Then you are fortunate because the driver side intake runners are easy to remove than the passenger side for left-hand drive cars (911 CIS).

If you could find a handheld probe with the scope small enough to get through the intake runner hole, inspection could be achieved. As you had experienced, the sleeve/s removal in situ sometimes is not as easy or simple as many people thought. Sometimes people get lucky but you can not depend on luck all the time.

If the remaining sleeves are on the driver side (left-hand drive car), you should have no problem getting off the intake runners. Keep us posted.

Tony

The old crusty sleeves are kind of random. On some you pull the injector and they come out. On others you would swear that they were glued. Seems you have two options.

1) remove the CIS without an engine drop (a partial drop may be in order if you search the forum- I have done it with and without-which was more of a pain)

I used a drift that had a large enough diameter to punch the sleeves out from underneath.
Then I would put a small vacuum hose on the ports in the engine to pick up any pieces. If a piece actually went into the head with a valve open I wouldn’t sweat it. Its a piece of plastic that will get crunched and likely ejected on exhaust side.

2) if you are ready to do the heads now then go all the way.

As far as the “tabs” you mention, when the sleeves are pressed in, at three points in the metal around the top of the sleeve, the metal is purposely hit with a tool to cause it to mechanically hold the sleeve in place. You should grind it off with something like a dremel and then recreate them after installing the sleeves. You can search and likely find pics of this. It is often referred to as “staking”.

Check this thread out

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/594165-injector-o-ring-replacement-again.html

It shows the stakes and how to add them again using a center punch.

Bob,

+ 1 on what Dr J said.

I did this years ago, and it could easily be the best improvements I've made to the car. Even years later, the car starts right up cold or hot, and runs great.

This is one of those times where you probably don't want to take anything else apart, but it may actually be easier to complete a partial or complete engine drop than to fight with the CIS while the engine is in. As you are finding out, there's nothing simple about removing the CIS while the engine is in. It can be done, but I wouldn't want to do it.

Once you do remove the engine and trans, you'll know it isn't that hard. Just takes time and the knowledge of what tools to use, what needs to be removed, and how to get everything apart. Experience helps with all of that.

The number 6 sleeve is the worst. I could not get that to budge and all I ended up doing was flaking bits of sleeve into the intake. I gave up and disassembled the whole CIS, tapping the sleeves out with a socket from the back of the runner. You'll probably have other vacuum leaks (I found that my airbox was leaking from age too) so it gives you a chance to test everything. I didn't bother grinding the stakes. If you install on the bench it's not necessary to mess with them.

If you decide to remove the CIS, be aware that there is a bracket in the back that connects the CIS to the engine just behind the throttle body. It connects to the plate that holds the accelerator linkage in the engine.

More than one of us has been stumped by a CIS that refuses to come out, only to realize that we forgot to remove the one nut holding this bracket.

7783811,
When you said something broke off, do you mean part of the tool or the disintegrated sleeve ?

Those plastic injector parts are exposed to lots of heat, they do turn brittle. The tabs you refer to are the stakes made on the intake runner to hold the injectors. Doing this work with the engine in the car is best done with small hands, multi jointed arms and a good strong back... not recommended.

I would drop the engine. There is so much more access and the opportunity to clean the engine and engine compartment outweighs any additional labor. Drop your 911 in one leisure morning. That is all it takes.

1) You are not in over your head

2) However, you cannot successfully, correctly, and completely do it in situ. Some have but I do not recommend it.

3) Pulling the CIS on an engine while installed is frustrating, tiresome, and your knuckles will hate you for it. At the very least you must do a partial.

4) For me the only way to work on the CIS correctly is to completely drop the engine - then it's a dream. Why? Because you risk WAY too much by dropping those pieces in and it's very difficult to correct peen those edges around the sleeve properly.

5) Unfortunately you took a shortcut and it did not work out. Though some do take this shortcut the old sleeves are way too unpredictable and brittle to really risk it.

6) If your sleeves are original and brittle my suggestion is to also check on all fuel lines as well. Lots of heat back there.

decided on a drop...will start with some friends and clean up intake for broken bits as well as get last sleeves out..check if what i find as bits is whats expected..if not and it may have gone into an open valve port, then decide next step...should have done the drop in the first place..less work than trying in situ and a good chance to refresh some bits pieces



thanks

Definitely the way to go. Vacuum test everything individually then again when you reassemble it. Dunk the airbox into a bucket of water with the ports plugged and some lightly pressurized air and you'll easily find any leaks there too.

It's a great opportunity to replace all the rubber hoses. mounts and o-rings too. It will run sweet when it's done. It's definitely worth it.

Part 2

Frozen tundra in garage and don’t have a high lift jack
I can invest in that and cradle to roll engine out on or...
Take it to trusted shop


I apologize for being long winded in advance...and reps
Eating portions but wanted to have details posted to solicit input....

I am at a crossroad at this moment. I started winter projects and one of them was to replace injector sleeves o rings and clean/balance injectors. Well that plan blew up when I started pulling sleeves and found 4 were so brittle that some small pieces may have fallen into the cylinders...to make matters worse,,my pulling tool lost a small tip of the end in # 6...

So lesson learnt...remove cis with engine out to do this job right, in situ is too full of risks.

It’s an 83sc engine and was running strong but horrid mileage (no vacuum leaks detected) and was consuming some higher then normal oil rate.

Last year the shop I take her to had some recommendations including valve guides ,new clutch and some other jobs all aimed at oil consumption issue (and droplet level leaks). I have several paths forward to decide on

Remove engine and tranny as a unit and attempt the find missing bits

Remove engine and tranny and take to shop to address. Intakes etc

Take car to shop and let them do the necessary work within a set budget to avoid while in here syndrome..


I am tempted to do the third because I am snake bitten at this point....what is usuall hours for a shop to drop engine using hoist and experience versus my attempting using Wayne’s book aNd every article I can locate.

It may be that paying an experienced shop that is doing the work the extra hours to remove and replace engine is well worth it given to total cost of the list of jobs will be 7k..give or take. And I get piece of mind that it’s being done right without risking another fubar from me.

I ve restored several car but never done a Porsche engine, I just sense that without proper tools and experience the aggravation I cause myself doing an engine removal in my unheated garage will be better served by the extra labor costs for them to do in 1/4 of the time it would take me.

If I did drop engine and tranny..the clutch is easy..but valve guides I don’t know what’s involved and what is needed to find the broken bits and be 100% confident I got all the bits out as well as did the valves correctly.

What would be typical things to get done along with guides etc to address oil consumption. Btw..leak down was almost 0 on all cylinders and compression was within a few psi across all 6...so rings appear to be fine. The car had sat for several years before I bought so I expect many seals need to be considered.?

What is the community thought on this dilemma...

Thanks for any and all insights

Bob

I can say first hand that work on the CIS is most certainly *easier* with the engine out of the car. I've done work on the CIS with the engine IN, OUT and with a "partial drop" - in your instance, I would suggest that a pair of days are invested in dropping the engine/tranny combo - and get out the shopvac to get the broken sleeves/tool chunks out of the intake.

After all, this car is not your daily driver: you have time to go at this thing slowly and with careful/calculated moves.

Tx rob

If I can get drivers side intakes of I can get the last two sleeves. Then take a small tube attached to stro g vacuum and see what I get out..if bots I expected then I will feel better...

May still take to get valves etc done..I just an not comfortable after reading stories in engine forum..need a PhD in engineering to do valve sleeves etc

Sigh..I hate indecision

If you pull the CIS make sure to replace the oil thermostat o-ring. $3.00 part, $1,000 headache. But don't worry about the racetrack gasket (breather cover), they don't leak

its turned -40 and unheated garage...if i could get runners off with removing entire CIS i might start the work,,if cant find the bits and clean up the sleeves, then off to the mechanic to do along with valves clutch etc..

so..can runners be removed without removing CIS