It sure is a clean install...
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa..._03[1].jpg

I'm very happy w/ my Perma-tune CDI box. I actually wrote the company commending them for the abuse their product could take. I bought an SC that had set 8 yrs. w/ P-T unit, decided to just drive the car home(40 miles) and deal w/ issues later. That night w/ the lid open, it looked like a light show. Bad ignition wires allowed arcing to both terminals of the coil, right to the P-T box!! I'm no electrical engineer, but 10,000 volts applied where 12 volts are supposed to be, 20+ times a second, for 40 miles, w/ no breakdown, is amazing. :eek: I just read a similar thread, and mine is an older one(w/o black epoxy). So my conclusion is that quality control is slipping. My $.02

I'm not sure what all of the ignition system marketeers/hypesters/tech people have been drinking [Could it be the water???] or reading ... but there seems to be a common thread between what they write and say for customer consumption ... and the J/C. Whitney catalogs I grew up reading about 40 years ago!

It doesn't really matter whether it is Permatue, Jacobs, MSD, et al ... but they seem to want to invent new meaningless jargon to refer to their latest product!

All sparks ... even the 2-4000 Volt variety created by walking across nylon carpet and touching a metal doorknob ... involve gas in the plasma state!

Kemo ... you seem to have lost sight of the topic for this thread ... i.e., a Permatune replacement for the 3.2 Carrera Motronic coil!

<b>Without a doubt, this is a product created to solve a problem that does not exist! Motronic ECU's die because of water and corrosion damage, loose connectors and transistors becoming loose, high Voltage damage ... not because of the load of the coil designed to be driven by the output transistor!</b>

I guess those new "Universal Heat Range Spark plugs" would really be something amazing ... if they weren't hype!!!

My thanks to Wayne for inviting me to participate in your discussion. I will answer the questions you have posted as time permits. First up: Plasma ignition.

It seems that you are confusing ionization with plasma. I suggest that you read up on plasma ignition by performing a Google search. Enter “plasma+ignition” and you will find that a great deal of research has been done in this field. The USC study has some very clear photographs of what is different between spark ignition and plasma ignition. By the way, do not confuse plasma ignition with a plasma torch, they are two different things. The national Ignition lab has a great deal of information open to the public on plasma research.

Perma-Tune is not just an ignition maker, we are a world class research and development laboratory. As Chief Design Engineer at Perma-Tune, I am an experimental physicist with a USDOE Q-level security clearance. Perma-Tune has supplied research services to many research laboratories in the field of pulsed laser, pulse detonation engines, radiation experiments and much more. Our customers include Lawrence Livermore National Labs, MIT, US Mine Safety, Boeing Aerospace, Pratt & Whitney Aerosciences, Bechtel, and others.

The Plasma Drive ignition product is a commercial application of technology we developed for the US Navy Surface Weapons Research Center. It has been tested and in use for several years now. Stay tuned for independent testing results to be posted on the Perma-Tune website.

Here are some sites you may find helpful in understanding what is unique and effective about plasma ignition in general.

LLNL site:
http://nuketesting.enviroweb.org/hew/News/Bigsubpages/Bigsubpage36.html

Another LLNL site:
http://www.corba.org/industries/aerodef/nig.html

USC page:
http://www.electrobionics.org/P_Power/pulsed_ignition.html

German Plasma Research Project
http://www.ilt.fhg.de/eng/jb99-s32.html

Well, he can spell a little better than that E-Ram guy. ;)

Perma-Tune Lab, if you want to convince enthusiasts of the worthiness of your product find a couple of clean Carreras with average mileage and no prior mods, then hand a couple of your units packed up in the box over to a respected performace/Porsche shop. Have them install it and do before/after dyno runs while you are not present- let them follow included directions (not under your supervision), and let them provide for you a list of detailed results. You can talk about Plasma all day- most of us aren't all that interested (but some will be) in the nitty gritty science of it. You should be able to find some willing test cars, and pony up a few $K for independent testing.

If you are a chief design engineer, you have to admit this is not an unreasonable scenario. I work in an engineering group for an OEM supplier to the appliance industry, and even we do not do all of our own testing. If anything, independent testing and install will help your tech writers refine the installation instructions for the unit, and possibly save you unnecessary warranty claims due to incorrect installations down the road.

-BG ;)

BG, You are correct on your independent testing protocols. These tests have been underway for quite some time, and as mentioned, test results will be posted. As a publicly reporting company, we are required to submit affidavits from independent testing facilities to the SEC indicating that dyno charts, gas analyzer plots, etc. that we publish accurately represent the actual tests performed.

Regards, Lonnie

seems P-T Lab is in a completely different league.

So thats it . . .your product provides a drawn out plasma phase (of the sparking process) (?)

Thanks for the links -good stuff.

Yes....yawn....hence the winky-smiley. It's HUMOR, get it?

I just read the White Paper and looked at some of the Links provided. I am not sure how you accomplish the separation of the plasma phase, but if so, there could be some real advantages. I think this could also benefit those of us who rely on carbs. A cleaner spark would be nice and allow a richer setting.

To me it looks like a very promising technology. The only thing I don't understand is why it would only be available for the DME cars. Perhaps if I had one and took the time to learn about the electronics I would be enlightened.

Plasma drive...hmmm, isn't that something Scottie & Kirk would scream about?

Perhaps Perma-tune would be interested in having a few of the more qualified members of this group act as beta testers... a variety of different cars, as stock as possible... Perma-tune provides the units, the beta-testers provide the reviews and solid evidence? Independent testing was suggested in the thread yesterday, and it's a good idea.

I wouldn't need a few guys testing it.. Warren is the electrical Pope around here, IMO.. like every low key word he may say is important to me.. a dog has one master...... Ron

My USDOE L,M,N,O,P - Clearance only let's me get in to the cafeteria and restrooms.....I gotta get me one of those Q clearances.

Fascinating - but of what value?
 

From one of the sites listed by the permatune guy:
"Transient plasma discharge can readily ignite flame at many points (tens to hundreds) simultaneously. Conventional spark ignition has only one discharge channel. Multi-site ignition can greatly increase the burning rate and decrease heat loss to the chamber walls, boosting thermal efficiency and facilitating lean fuel burning. Transient plasma ignition has a higher thermal efficiency as a result of the higher electron energy, which provides a better match with the ionization and dissociation energy of many molecules, with less radiative and conductive heat loss. "
Sounds like neat lab work....but in the realities of our flat 6 engines, I don't see the value. Sure, it may make a few PPM reduction in some pollutants - but it's only likely to occur at near steady state conditions (fixed throttle and load, etc...stuff that you could do in a lab setting) With the wild transients that occur in normal driving ( heh, heh...normal for a 911) I find it hard to believe that this system would make a discernable difference. If a 911 is properly tuned, wired and maintained (valve adjust, cam timing, etc) then it's running at a pretty high level of performance. I would think that the only thing that permatune could possibly do for a 911, would be to help give more complete ignition, under certain specific driving conditions (I don't know what they would be?)
I guess I'm back to the question of value......personally, I'd be inclined to spend my bucks on something that would give me a noticeable improvement in performance or mileage or ????? - and I don't think that it would come from something like this.

Perma-Tune Labs ...

Without knowing how long you have worked at Perma-Tune, credentials and white papers will do little to address the many complaints I have heard recently about the Perma-Tune replacement units for the Bosch CDI-units ... including many problems with the tech support and testing of failed units that your technicians sent back 'No Trouble Found' ...

Many of the claims in the technical section of your website are erroneous, including:

1. Your claim that the Perma-Tune units are failsafe ... which many customer com,plaints seems to refute!

2. That the Turbo, 911 and 911SC Perma-Tune units have three times the energy output of the 'stock' ignition ... which happens to be the exact verbage used in the claims for the upgrade Permatune unit for '65 - '69 battery-coil ignition systems!

3. That the Perma-Tune units do not whistle or whine like the Bosch CDI-units ... yet earlier Perma-Tune units built before the interior 'potting' was incorporated DO, IN FACT, whistle or whine at audible levels!

Your sales and technical support staff are currently recommending against use of your 911 and 'SC' units with the OEM Bosch 0.221.121.001 and 0.221.121.006 ignition transformers, yet your units are supposed to be 'drop-in' replacements for the Bosch CDI-unts! Your own coil, or the Bosch 'Blue' coil are being recommended. Why the apparent avoidance of the OEM Bosch coil used on 911's and Turbos? I bought a used 911SC coil -- Bosch 0.221.121.006 on eBay for $35, and it still works perfectly ... a good spare to have around for testing!

There are recent complaints of a high-temperature relibility issue with Perma-Tune Turbo, 911, and 911SC units when oil temperatures are above approximately 220° F ... yet testing at your facility of returned units often finds "No Trouble Found" ??? Do your technicians have the capability of testing returned units at elevated temperatures simulating high underhood temps, or is bench testing done at room temperature?

While I have personally never had any problems with my spare Perma-Tune 3-pin unit of approximately 1982 vintage ... I have been contacted by several people who have experienced failures of their Perma-Tune boxes. I have suggested an external fix for dead 3-pin boxes that worked for several people after an internal wiring failure involving an 'open' in the 100 Ohm 5 Watt pullup resistor on the input trigger lead of 'potted' units of recent manufacture.

Warren, you’ve brought up several questions, some of which summarize a couple of well-circulated misunderstandings that have come up on discussion boards.

“Fail-safe”:
You are referring to copies of obsolete Perma-Tune installation instructions or troubleshooting guides. Many years ago, we revised our guides due to the confusion generated by the term “fail-safe”. What we meant by “fail-safe” is that with the exception of the Perma-Tune model 911 and model 911E, all of our ignition systems perform an internal self-diagnostic routine before allowing the car to start. If the unit detects any internal weakness, it will not allow the car to start.

The units still perform this self-diagnostic routine, but we removed this language because it was sometimes misinterpreted to mean that the unit can’t be damaged by components external to the ignition module, such as faulty wiring grounds, A/C spikes from a failing alternator, reversing the battery terminals, a bad coil, etc.

Every ignition system on the market is subject to the same potential of external damage from these conditions. Perma-Tune is not “especially sensitive” to external damage, as some have stated.

Typo in the technical section of Perma-Tune website:
There are almost 1000 pages on our site, and occasionally a typo slips by us undetected. We continue to update and increase the knowledge base available to the public on our site for free (an industry exclusive), and we enthusiastically welcome all comments, contributions and corrections.

So, thank-you for pointing out the error on the 911E page. Since the output of the breaker points system is about 10-15 mJ and the 911E is 120 mJ, the site should say “about 10 times more powerful”, not three times.

Silent operation:
Perma-Tune units are not a copy of the Bosch unit. Bosch is stock equipment, whereas the Perma-Tune is a high performance unit. They are two completely different designs. The Bosch unit is a fixed oscillator type design, which oscillates at a fixed frequency no matter what the engine RPM is. This is why you can hear it humming when the power is turned on to the box even though the engine is not running.

The Perma-Tune is a mono stable design. It only works when the demand for ignition is present. This is why you do not hear the Perma-Tune hum when the power is on. When the ignition demands are frequent enough, and in the absence of engine noise (such as in a lab testing environment separate from the running engine), you may hear a nearly inaudible noise that is directly proportional to engine RPM. Naturally, these conditions will never be present in your shop under the hood of the car.

The mono stable design has been a feature of the Perma-Tune since day one back in the 70’s and is still a feature of the modern Perma-Tune design of today. So it is safe to say for your purposes that Perma-Tunes never have, and do not now, make any detectable noise.

There are many other differences between these two designs. I will elaborate on those differences on our website as time permits.

Coils:
There has been much ado about nothing here. We have always recommended diagnostic procedures that any good mechanic would naturally perform. These procedures include, but are not limited to, diagnosing the cause of a malfunctioning system as opposed to simply swapping out parts randomly until the car begins to runs again. This approach is much more effective in the long run, but requires skill and knowledge to perform. We aim to assist by providing a wealth of educational material as well as technical support on the phone. The coil is a good example of this.

Since the ignition coil on the 911 is mounted upside down on the engine fan shroud, it is subject to heat and vibration that can cause the dielectric material to leak out of the coil. When this happens with an oil filled coil, there will be traces of oil leaking out of the high voltage tower and or the can seal. On other coils there will be a tar like substance leaking out. The dielectric material keeps the high voltage side of the coil from shorting to the low voltage side of the coil.

If the coil shorts out, the high voltage will hit the ignition box through the coil low voltage windings. No ignition box can stand this condition for very long. Bosch makes a very reliable unit but like any other ignition, it will eventually give up under these conditions. You can see what happens to the box swappers: they set themselves up for repeat ignition box failures.

This is why we always recommend that if the coil appears to be defective or was otherwise suspect, to replace it when you replace the ignition box. It is the same logic that is behind replacing an old, cracked valve stem with a new one when you replace the tire. Cheap insurance.

Some customers complained to us that the stock coil was too expensive, and asked if we could we recommend a cheaper alternative. For many years, racers have used the Bosch Blue coil with the Perma-Tune because it has a slightly higher turns ratio than the stock coil. Since the Blue coil happens to have electrical characteristics that are compatible with the Perma-Tune, we recommended it as an alternative to the high-priced stock coil.

A few years ago, coils made in Brazil appeared. It was about this time we started seeing problems arise from defective replacement coils. We then started recommending our Coilless ignition boxes and started producing our own low cost coils for use with all non-Coilless Perma-Tune units.

Lab Testing:
Our laboratory is fully equipped and staffed by highly proficient technicians and engineers. All units are tested at least four times during construction under varying conditions that far exceed what the unit will experience in the real world. The final test before shipping the unit is the most stringent that I know of in the industry. This testing does include use of our specially equipped autoclave that allows the unit to be operated at 300 degrees Fahrenheit at 10,000 RPM.

Units that are returned to us for testing undergo the same testing as new productions units, with the exception that the autoclave test lasts several hours and includes a thermal shock and heat soak test.

As an editorial note, I’ve experienced accidentally setting the autoclave to 500F and forgetting the unit running for several hours at 10,000 RPM. The connectors melted, so naturally we knew we’d bought the customer a new unit. But then just out of curiosity, we brought it back into the lab to see how the guts performed – perfect, with a big, nasty blue spark.

Potting material:
Warren, you seem very focused on the potting material Perma-Tune has protected its units with for many years. The function of the potting material is to protect the electrical components from moisture, vibration and dirt.

All components that conduct heat are bolted directly to the aluminum base plate in the Perma-Tune, first creating conduction cooling to the aluminum base plate, which in turn allows convection cooling to the air from the aluminum fins on the exterior of the unit.

In the late 1990’s, newer electrical components were designed into the Perma-Tune product line, which operate within a range of only FOUR degrees maximum above the surrounding components. If the unit overheats to an extreme degree, there is a circuit in the unit that shuts it down. This shutdown is a sign of stress to the components that indicates external malfunction. The unit is custom designed to shut down for a cooling period, much like a thermal overload protection device.

In other words, it is not a flaw – it is a deliberate design that prevents component overheating and very expensive damage. This condition also serves as a warning that there is a problem with the car, as opposed to simply ceasing to function altogether.

External “fix” for failed units:
Warren, we seriously do NOT advise working around a fried ignition unit using ad hoc repair techniques. The reason is simple. The unit fails for a REASON, which if not diagnosed and remedied, will fry subsequent ignition units. Some damage is instantaneous. Some damage is cumulative.
If the ignition unit is fried by cumulative damage, we’ll often hear, “Well, I installed a new unit and the car was down the road working fine, which ‘proves’ this Perma-Tune unit was faulty.”

Keep the bay doors open, because the customer will be back when the undiagnosed cause of cumulative damage destroys the new ignition unit in a few months. Doesn’t matter what brand the new unit is, it is susceptible to the same external factors as the Perma-Tune unit.

To answer your specific comment about the 100 Ohm sense resistor, you are correct that it is a 5 Watt resistor. As you know, this 5 Watt rating is more than twice what is required for the circuit. What you probably do not know is that it is a wire wound resistor. The wire wound resistor has been part of the design for that car since the first 911 ignition.

This type of resistor is used so that it can act as a kind of fuse in the event of an overload. The overload can result from several factors including failed alternator rectifiers, the most common cause. It is possible to replace the resistor external to the ignition box as you have found.

This may make the unit function again, but is not a good idea. The unit will not be reliable after suffering this kind of damage. Any overload that can cause a double rated resistor to fail has certainly caused other damage to the unit.

Along the same line of thinking, the ground connection inside of our 911 and 911SC boxes are actually fuseable links. In the event of a ground loop fault, the link will burn out breaking the circuit. Without this protection, the car harness would burst into flame. If you don’t think this can happen, just take a tour of a Porsche bone yard and see for yourself.

(more on another post due to length)

Continued....


Some have labeled our troubleshooting assistance to end users as “pointing the finger”, and some truly appreciate the information about how an ignition system works in the context of the whole combustion engine. There are countless really gifted mechanics with lots of valuable experience working on European sports cars, but sometimes even they can use just a little more information to help them over the diagnosis phase. We’re here to help.

As the guy paying the bill, you must ask yourself why anyone would prefer not to fix the root cause of the trouble. One might argue that there are three primary reasons: future revenue from repeat repairs, ego preventing the mechanic from seeking expert advice, or simple lack of understanding which is easily remedied. We feel the first two reasons are pretty rare, as the vast majority of the mechanics we’ve spoken to are honest guys who just need a little information.

We care about your satisfaction with your car, not just our ignition. If all we wanted to do was make a profit on you, we’d tell you your box was fried -- too bad, so sad, buy another one. From this perspective it is curious to read criticism about learning that one’s Perma-Tune is functioning within specs after an exhaustive, free of charge lab test, accompanied by an offer to assist with troubleshooting at no charge. Really. Think about that. Some guys are ANGRY that their box HASN’T failed? Whew.

Concerning my tenure:
I’ve been responsible for the Perma-Tune product line since 1981. I’ve owned the company since 1989.

Happy motoring,
Lonnie