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^ Here’s a post to help with that !

Old 08-20-2020, 04:44 PM
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Now I’m curious.
Old 08-20-2020, 04:45 PM
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I had the same issue with #5 cylinder on a fresh rebuild. I also kept driving it. With 150 miles on it I was meeting up with some friends at the Sunday meet at AMC theater in Montrose. I also had low leakdown numbers and lots of blowby. On my way up the 2 freeway the motor started smoking and a little knocking started. I pulled off on Colorado Blvd. Had AAA come. The next day I pulled motor and found that #2 ring had broke. I ended up doing a full rebuild to a 2.8 I also just purchased a 997 GT3 RS muffler.
Old 08-20-2020, 05:03 PM
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Well... Today was one for the books.

I woke up a bit before 6am so I could be on the road by 6:15, get a fresh tank of 91 (all you that have 93 are soooo lucky), and head up to Ed Pink Racing for my 7am dyno appointment.

Living in socal really has it's perks. It's ~25 minutes door to door.

We loaded the car onto the dyno, James and I went over what tuning I'd done so far, and then we decided to dive in.



The idle has been a bit wonky lately so we started dialing that in first. We went into areas of Tunerstudio that I had never clicked on before... "Idle Advance" and "Idle RPM Timing Correction Curve". Those tables help advance the ignition timing if the idle ever drops below the target that we have set, increasing timing gives it a bump more power. This was helpful because I don't have an idle control valve... Might be worth adding one at some point though.

Next we started working on part throttle and acceleration enrichment. That was another area that I haven't looked at much either. I had used Tunerstudio to run logs and then use VE Analyze within megalog viewer and the VE tables that it would setup went really "rich" from 2k rpm-4k rpm. It was the computer compensating for the lack of acceleration enrichment. The problem with doing it within the VE table is that it will do that only when you're pegging the throttle in that RPM band. It's not a good solution but fortunately that's exactly why the acceleration enrichment exists. We played around with the numbers and got it to only lean out at WOT in a very narrow band. Called it good.

Next was full throttle and probably what you're all waiting for... I'm starting to get the hang of what we're trying to accomplish with the tuning. We're aiming for an accurate VE table so that the AFR target is met. Once the VE table is accurate you'll be able to set your desired AFR target within the AFR target table and the ECU will adjust everything to make that reality. Then you're able to track AFR error within tunerstudio to see how close you're getting.

Anyways, here is a video of the final WOT run:



Final results were 144whp and 136 wtq, WTF?!



In terms of raw numbers, I'm wildly disappointed. I was aiming for 240-250 whp. So what gives?

There are several factors at play but none completely add up to me:
  • Dynos themselves can have wildly different outputs from one to another, is it possible that this is just a heartbreaker? Maybe, but TLG Auto has had several cars dynoed there and while the numbers were probably low, I don't think they were this low.
  • I have a cylinder with low compression. That is for sure a detriment. I'll fix it along with adding in the GT3 muffler and getting the Cam sensor to read so we can go sequential and then I'll go back to see if we have a different experience.
  • Hot AF temperatures. We're in the middle of a heatwave in socal. It was 90-100 degrees out at 9am in Van Nuys and the IAT on that last run were 123 degrees farenheit.
  • Do I have some other issue somewhere? I should fully check the cams and that they're opening fully where they should be. I know mechanical timing is within spec but maybe the grind is off?

Finishing thoughts? The Avocado is running better than it ever has, it idles, part throttle is crisp, and it absolutely rips in the canyons. It feels quick, not like a car with 144 whp. I'll fix what needs fixing, check what needs checking, and then head back to both this dyno and another one for comparisons sake.

Until the next time.
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Old 08-20-2020, 05:19 PM
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Sorry to the low hp numbers. I spoke with Pinks also to have my car dyno done. Just waiting for the 997 GT3 muffler to arrive from Brian at M&K. I had some modifications done. Might wait for weather to cool down. What did Pinks say about your Dyno session. Any advice?
Old 08-20-2020, 05:43 PM
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I also, would like to hear what feedback you got on those numbers as they seem very low. FWIW, my old carbed, E cammed, 2,5, made 165 hp at the wheels.
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Old 08-20-2020, 07:48 PM
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You can see blowby coming out of the oil tank. So definitely down on power because of that. Dirty and/or pinched ring land?
Have you confirmed ignition advance against a timing light?
AFR's?
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Old 08-20-2020, 10:03 PM
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And your video on page 10 sounds like there's some extra noise coming from somewhere. Valvetrain? Or misfire? You can see some smoke on the left exhaust.
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Old 08-20-2020, 10:06 PM
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Those numbers just don’t pass the smell test. They’re abysmal, so much so that your “butt dyno” would absolutely be able to tell if it was underpowered. If it’s pulling well and is generally lively, I have to think there was a calibration miss on the dyno.

Few thoughts:

1) The HP curve is exactly what you’d see on a stock 3.2; the “bump” is just where and how it should be.....albeit should be pronouncedly more vertical
2) Ambient heat will have an impact on numbers, but not huge. The car running hotter than 185 will affect power way more than outside temp, but even then it’s not a big number (trick for Carrera Spec dyno requirements is to get it up immediately after a run group to show as low a number as possible. That’s usually at WSIR which could be anywhere from 90-110 F)
3) Granted I’ve only seen race cars dyno’ed (tho I’ve seen a lot), but that motor doesn’t sound high strung enough to even hit 210bhp. Getting to those numbers, even on a muffled car, the motor is SCREAMING. That comment is more layman and highly subjective, so prob best to ignore!

Good luck figuring it out....I highly doubt it’s as bad as the numbers show based on your drivability comments.

PS: Dig the green with copper rims
Old 08-20-2020, 10:15 PM
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Suscribed!

Ouaw Gabe, what a thread, hope everything will end up good soon...

I've been reading your thread for 3 hours (english not beeing my mother tongue) and really enjoyed it.

Thank you for sharing, very inspiring, can't wait for my car to arrive from California and start the build this fall.
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Last edited by Psychepilgrim; 08-21-2020 at 05:25 AM..
Old 08-21-2020, 05:22 AM
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Gabe, I just received my 997 GT3 muffler back from Brian at M&K. Here's some pictures of the modifications done. Was Wondering if you did the dyno test with your 997 GT3 muffler


Old 08-21-2020, 01:42 PM
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As always awesome thread! Even with the low compression in cylinder 2, outside temps, etc, a nearly a 100whp loss seems way too high. I agree with what others said, your butt would be telling you if you were that down on power.

I would recommend going for a drive in your car and then hopping into someone else stock 3.2 (healthy) if possible and see what your butt tells you as there should be roughly a 50 whp difference based on your results.

If my car wasn't at TRE right now, I would offer it up for a test drive. My 3.2 isn't 100% stock but whp should be around 210-220 ish.

If you haven't sorted this out by mid Sept (that's when I should have my car back), let me know and you can grab my car for a run.
Old 08-21-2020, 02:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 911 SLANT View Post
Sorry to the low hp numbers. I spoke with Pinks also to have my car dyno done. Just waiting for the 997 GT3 muffler to arrive from Brian at M&K. I had some modifications done. Might wait for weather to cool down. What did Pinks say about your Dyno session. Any advice?
They didn't really have any advice on the low power issues, just that their dyno might read low... I feel like I need to fix a few of the things I know could be a detriment and then head back. After that, all bets are off! Need to also get it to another dyno after that for comparison's sake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackrash View Post
I also, would like to hear what feedback you got on those numbers as they seem very low. FWIW, my old carbed, E cammed, 2,5, made 165 hp at the wheels.
I need to get that new piston installed, confirm that cam is good, and then head back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Beau View Post
You can see blowby coming out of the oil tank. So definitely down on power because of that. Dirty and/or pinched ring land?
Have you confirmed ignition advance against a timing light?
AFR's? And your video on page 10 sounds like there's some extra noise coming from somewhere. Valvetrain? Or misfire? You can see some smoke on the left exhaust.
Yea, the blowby is from cylinder #2. I ordered a new piston, just need to find a matching cylinder and then I can tear the engine apart to install it. Might also reseal the case with threebond at that point too.

I know that the base timing is correct, I haven't checked to see if ignition advance is correct. AFR are on point, target is 12.5:1 and the tune is pretty spot on to match it.

The vid on page 10 was right after I got the engine back together and the smoke coming out the driver side header was from oil leaking into the header/heater box.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mehoff View Post
Those numbers just don’t pass the smell test. They’re abysmal, so much so that your “butt dyno” would absolutely be able to tell if it was underpowered. If it’s pulling well and is generally lively, I have to think there was a calibration miss on the dyno.

Few thoughts:

1) The HP curve is exactly what you’d see on a stock 3.2; the “bump” is just where and how it should be.....albeit should be pronouncedly more vertical
2) Ambient heat will have an impact on numbers, but not huge. The car running hotter than 185 will affect power way more than outside temp, but even then it’s not a big number (trick for Carrera Spec dyno requirements is to get it up immediately after a run group to show as low a number as possible. That’s usually at WSIR which could be anywhere from 90-110 F)
3) Granted I’ve only seen race cars dyno’ed (tho I’ve seen a lot), but that motor doesn’t sound high strung enough to even hit 210bhp. Getting to those numbers, even on a muffled car, the motor is SCREAMING. That comment is more layman and highly subjective, so prob best to ignore!

Good luck figuring it out....I highly doubt it’s as bad as the numbers show based on your drivability comments.

PS: Dig the green with copper rims
Thanks for your thoughts! We'll get it figured out and I'll share the journey.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychepilgrim View Post
Suscribed!

Ouaw Gabe, what a thread, hope everything will end up good soon...

I've been reading your thread for 3 hours (english not beeing my mother tongue) and really enjoyed it.

Thank you for sharing, very inspiring, can't wait for my car to arrive from California and start the build this fall.
Nice! Thanks for swinging by and reading through.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 911 SLANT View Post
Gabe, I just received my 997 GT3 muffler back from Brian at M&K. Here's some pictures of the modifications done. Was Wondering if you did the dyno test with your 997 GT3 muffler
Looks awesome! I'm hoping to still be able to use the inlets on the end of mine. The dyno was with 1.625" Billy Boat headers and muffler, not the GT3 setup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_howey View Post
As always awesome thread! Even with the low compression in cylinder 2, outside temps, etc, a nearly a 100whp loss seems way too high. I agree with what others said, your butt would be telling you if you were that down on power.

I would recommend going for a drive in your car and then hopping into someone else stock 3.2 (healthy) if possible and see what your butt tells you as there should be roughly a 50 whp difference based on your results.

If my car wasn't at TRE right now, I would offer it up for a test drive. My 3.2 isn't 100% stock but whp should be around 210-220 ish.

If you haven't sorted this out by mid Sept (that's when I should have my car back), let me know and you can grab my car for a run.
I'm going on a drive tomorrow morning with some friends so I'm hoping I'll be able to get some perspective on power comparison between a few cars.
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Old 08-21-2020, 03:24 PM
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Just in case it hasn’t already been mentioned or tried, be sure you check the throttle linkage and slides/butterflies. The cables have been known to bend or stretch and the intakes can get stuck at 3/4 open, so you’ll want to be sure you have WoT. Don’t do it by hand either; have someone sit in the drivers seat push the accelerator to the floor.
Old 08-21-2020, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Mehoff View Post
Just in case it hasn’t already been mentioned or tried, be sure you check the throttle linkage and slides/butterflies. The cables have been known to bend or stretch and the intakes can get stuck at 3/4 open, so you’ll want to be sure you have WoT. Don’t do it by hand either; have someone sit in the drivers seat push the accelerator to the floor.
That's a good point. I don't think I double-checked that once I put the engine back in the car.
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Old 08-21-2020, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe. View Post
I know that the base timing is correct, I haven't checked to see if ignition advance is correct. AFR are on point, target is 12.5:1 and the tune is pretty spot on to match it.
Advance is easy to check--worth a shot. The AFR reading will be misleading if there's a misfire.
Have they dyno'd any other common cars so you have a baseline. Mustang Dynos read way lower than Dynojets for instance. I don't know about Datamite.
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Old 08-23-2020, 07:21 AM
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Well, it's been a minute!

I haven't done a whole lot with the avocado lately, until last weekend.

I've been pretty bummed out since the dyno session and after putting on ~150 miles during The Motoring Club's drive the Saturday after the dyno, it started to not idle almost at all. It died at a redlight and I had to hold my foot on the pedal to keep it around 1500 RPM for the rest of the drive home... I'd imagine that the poor idle and other issues are all related. So I've decided to do a full teardown of the engine when I replace the piston to see what's going on.

Back in May I bought a stock 3.2 longblock that was sold as *maybe* needing a rebuild. It was leaky and oily AF. I degreased and pressure washed it as best I could and then it sat in the corner. When I started having issues with the avocado engine, I decided to pull it out of the corner and give it a health check. I did a leakdown, since that's easy to do with the engine out of the car, and it came back with 2-3% on cylinders 2-6 and 5% on cylinder #1, pretty healthy! After that, I decided that the easiest way to see it and hear it run was to swap it into the avocado with the ITBs and Billy Boat exhaust. Since I also bought it as a long block I had to source a bunch of parts:
  • Crankcase breather cover DONE
  • Cam housing drain tubes DONE
  • Oil pressure switch DONE
  • Sachs Power Clutch DONE
  • Starter Ring Gear DONE
  • Exhaust manifold studs DONE
  • Fan housing - Need to source, used the avocado pieces for now
  • Fan - Need to source, used the avocado pieces for now
  • Engine tins - Need to source, used the avocado pieces for now
  • engine cradle and mount crossbar - Bought one but it was for a non AC pulley
  • Starter/alternator wiring harness - Need to source, used the avocado harness for now

My wife and I took a ten day trip to Denver over Labor Day to spend time with family and friends and I ordered everything ahead of time so it would be here when I got home.

The next thing I needed to find was motivation to get this whole swap done... Those of you that have been following my instagram saw that I embarked on that journey this last weekend - twice, lol.

This sight is becoming too common:



Ready to back into the car:



Swapping things between engines wasn't too bad but I only have one stand and one P201 engine cradle, that made it a lot more difficult. I removed the header while it was on the car so I could swap that and the exhaust studs onto what we've now dubbed the COVID engine. Everything went smoothly, it was really just time consuming. Once I got the engine/trans installed into the car, I turned the key and it fired right up! No weird noises and no significant oil leaks (have a small one from a valve cover gasket and the block the oil pressure sensor mounts to). After buttoning things up I was ready to go take it for a test run. After two long days, I sat in the seat and went to push the clutch down to back it out of the garage and it was hard as a rock. SHIP. I went though the full clutch cable/fork and didn't see anything amiss. After I thought about it I couldn't remember if I put the clutch disk on in the correct orientation. That meant the engine was coming back out...

I was initially really annoyed at myself but after I slept on it, I felt a bit better. This time around I timed myself. The car was already up on the rack and the battery was unplugged, but other than those two items, I got the engine/trans out in 1 hour and 7 minutes! Definitely a record for me.



Once I got the trans off I went through everything and it was all installed correctly, hmmm. Back in the car it went. At this point I thought to myself that I should check out some pictures of the clutch fork assembly that's external to the transmission. It was at that point I realized that I had the Pin that sticks out of the lever on the wrong side of the fork stop. Hahahahaha, damn it. I took the engine out for no real reason. Upside, I got the engine out, fixed the clutch, and back in all in exactly 4 hours. Started at 8:07am Monday morning and finished at 12:07pm in the afternoon. Wild. And definitely a record for me.



I adjusted the tune a bit on Monday evening and got it running well. I have essentially the same timing as the twin-plug engine right now and will probably keep it conservative unless I find a better map.

Yesterday afternoon I took it for a spin up in the canyons. The idle was a little high but that's from the bellcrank sticking a bit, easy fix. The engine was also running much hotter than the avocado engine. I swapped the thermostats between engines and will test the one from the COVID engine to see if it's working correctly.

That's where we stand today! Seems to be running pretty well.

Driving impressions: from the butt dyno it feels a lot slower than the avocado engine, as you'd imagine it would be but those low dyno numbers skewed my thoughts around that engine. It's torquey down low but doesn't rip on the top end like the avocado engine. The muffler is "boomy" rather than crisp like it used to be and I don't really like the way it sounds anymore. I think all that popping messed the muffler up some how so the next thing I'd like to do is swap that GT3 muffler on. Need to order up the exhaust tubing, flanges, and cutouts and then I can turn that into a reality.





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Old 09-16-2020, 11:46 AM
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Gabe,
Once again, your perseverance is inspiring.

If you're running a single-spark engine on twin-spark timing, you're leaving a lot of HP on the table.
I run a ton of timing in my single-spark car and dialing in the spark was what really made a difference in how it runs.

Ninja edit: Timing is actually the whole reason I want to do twin-spark when I tear mine back down in 5 or so years. I know there's HP to be had just by running less timing and the explosion not pushing against the piston as it travels towards TDC.
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Old 09-16-2020, 12:03 PM
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It's a good thing you bought that white/green/brown project car to keep yourself occupied...
Old 09-16-2020, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisbalich View Post
Gabe,
Once again, your perseverance is inspiring.

If you're running a single-spark engine on twin-spark timing, you're leaving a lot of HP on the table.
I run a ton of timing in my single-spark car and dialing in the spark was what really made a difference in how it runs.

Ninja edit: Timing is actually the whole reason I want to do twin-spark when I tear mine back down in 5 or so years. I know there's HP to be had just by running less timing and the explosion not pushing against the piston as it travels towards TDC.
Thanks Chris! Would you be willing to send me a screenshot of your current ignition table? Right now I have 10 degrees at idle and ~28 at full throttle. I'm sure more power could be gained but it's a totally stock engine...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tremelune View Post
It's a good thing you bought that white/green/brown project car to keep yourself occupied...
Hahahaha, right? It's also Red with shades of gray and black

The car was delivered on May 8th and I was planning to have it running/driving by now... I haven't even touched it. Dialing in the Avocado took a lot longer than I expected. Along with all the issues I've had to deal with it's soaked up a lot of extra time.

I've been debating taking all the go fast goodies from the Avocado engine and installing them onto the Covid engine, that way I can keep the original/welded engine case with the avocado but man it feels dumb to tear apart an engine that seems to be mint.

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Old 09-16-2020, 01:07 PM
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